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51 minutes ago, Carltonus said:

希望支持彻底取消 Iphicratean 改革技术 @Thorfinn the Shallow Minded ,但其他社区成员之间似乎尚未达成共识。 在这种情况下,有哪些替代技术和冠军单位可以取代伊菲克拉特的影响?

回到这一点,改革(如果保留的话)实际上应该解锁一个像现在的 Epilektos 这样的冠军轻型重装步兵,以及一个类似于几个 alpha 前的 theureophoros 的冠军散兵。 海军陆战队应该是一个完全不同的故事,可以解锁不同的技术(轻型/装甲前叉?)。

图片参考:

image.thumb.jpeg.790d0067726051e51209eb7d4d7378c7.jpeg

当次要武器成为一种东西时,冠军轻重装兵可以兼作重装步兵。 不要忘记用椭圆形柳条护罩替换 thureos。

But, as in Ptolemy, this soldier would be divided into two types of soldiers, the spearmen and the javelinmen.:(

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13 hours ago, AIEND said:

But, as in Ptolemy, this soldier would be divided into two types of soldiers, the spearmen and the javelinmen.:(

"Ptolemy"? The champions of the Ptolemaic faction are agema pikeman and spear cavalry. Athenians have three, with one requiring an inconsistent technological research item in the council hall (prythaneon).

Since the discussion here is about the Athenian champions, we should also take into consideration the marines and Scythian police. Who agrees renaming the "Iphicratean reforms" tech to one for unlocking the marine units (epibates and Cretan archers)? Land-only maps should also be taken into account, so (1) Cretan archers should also be hired in a structure other than the port and (2) marines should also be trained in the gymnasium. The upgrade should be explicit, recruiting from triremes (and port, for balancing).

The Iphicratean reforms (reiterating, if be retained) should unlock the present "epilektos" and a champion skirmisher; both light and fast. Any thoughts for armored marines and the logades (armored hoplite), slow and sturdy?

Finally, the Scythian police. Which the community prefers: Clubmen ("macmen")/axemen (sagaris), or archer? Any auras to represent their policing duty?

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5 minutes ago, Carltonus said:
14 hours ago, AIEND said:

But, as in Ptolemy, this soldier would be divided into two types of soldiers, the spearmen and the javelinmen.:(

"Ptolemy"? The champions of the Ptolemaic faction are agema pikeman and spear cavalry. Athenians have three, with one requiring an inconsistent technological research item in the council hall (prythaneon).

I believe he is talking about the Thureophoros. :) Eventually I'd like to see them being either switchable or throw a javelin before closing with their spear. 

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16 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I believe he is talking about the Thureophoros. :)

Thureos came later during the Hellenistic period, in my current knowledge; any accounts regarding them before/around the time of Alexander? Iphicrates was around 4th century BCE. Believe that "Light Peltast" would be a better name for the proposed champion skirmisher with the oval wicker shields.

Edited by Carltonus
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About the Athenian champions, here are my ideas:

Hoplite Champion

  • Epilektos is a good name, IMHO, but I agree that "City Guard" seems much too generic and not very accurate to the Greek word.
  • A Logades was more of an officer or something, right? Regardless, I don't think the Athenians need a specific analogue to the Spartiate. The Spartiate should be the heaviest infantry in the game. A Logades for the Athenians would just feel like Spartiate-lite.

Iphicratean Reforms

  • IMHO, should be a special tech that reduces armor of your infantry, but increases their speed and maybe range (melee). Put it early, at Town or even possibly Village, so the player can make the choice, "Do I want faster infantry for raiding or heavier infantry for slugfests?"

Marines

  • I feel like these should just be a "bonus" for Athens on water maps. Part of their suite of Naval bonuses.
  • Training from ships feels weird to me. I'd prefer trained from the Dock.
    • I wish this could be something special, like training a batch of mixed troops: light swordsmen, dudes with naval pikes, archers, etc.

Cretan Archers

  • Just make them a merc trainable from the Barracks.

 

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4 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

About the Athenian champions, here are my ideas:

Hoplite Champion

  • Epilektos is a good name, IMHO, but I agree that "City Guard" seems much too generic and not very accurate to the Greek word.
  • A Logades was more of an officer or something, right? Regardless, I don't think the Athenians need a specific analogue to the Spartiate. The Spartiate should be the heaviest infantry in the game. A Logades for the Athenians would just feel like Spartiate-lite.

The main strength of Ancient (Classical) Athenian army was indeed hoplites; maybe not as good as Spartans', but that was their focus nonetheless. Epilektoi were elite and full-time hoplites. Since champions are elite (strongest) and full-time (cannot work), it makes perfect sense for Athenians to have hoplite champions called Epilektos.

4 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Iphicratean Reforms

  • IMHO, should be a special tech that reduces armor of your infantry, but increases their speed and maybe range (melee). Put it early, at Town or even possibly Village, so the player can make the choice, "Do I want faster infantry for raiding or heavier infantry for slugfests?"

All great ideas to differentiate them from the other hoplite civilization Spartans.

4 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Marines

  • I feel like these should just be a "bonus" for Athens on water maps. Part of their suite of Naval bonuses.
  • Training from ships feels weird to me. I'd prefer trained from the Dock.
    • I wish this could be something special, like training a batch of mixed troops: light swordsmen, dudes with naval pikes, archers, etc.

In fact, being superior sailors, Athenians would prefer less non-rowing crew and focus on manueverability for ramming. I think such a bonus makes sense when ship ramming is introduced. Nevertheless, Athenians did perform many amphibious assaults (Sicilian Expedition, campaigns against Persians), this sets them apart, and the idea of a landing unit sits well. My only concern would be: does it make sense for it to be a champion? Should Athenians have swordsmen on par with swordsmen specialists like Romans, Iberians etc.

4 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Cretan Archers

  • Just make them a merc trainable from the Barracks.

 

I will propose to make Scythian Archer not a champion from the Gymnasium, but rather a mercenary either from the barracks or simply replacing the current Cretan Archers for Athenians. My justification: should Athenians rely on elite archers the way archer specialists like Kushites do, or should they have foreign mercenary archers which complement their main hoplite army? I can't imagine these guys training in the Gymnasium side by side with Epilektoi :P.

Edited by Outis
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1 hour ago, Outis said:

In fact, being superior sailors, Athenians would prefer less non-rowing crew and focus on manueverability for ramming. I think such a bonus makes sense when ship ramming is introduced. Nevertheless, Athenians did perform many amphibious assaults (Sicilian Expedition, campaigns against Persians), this sets them apart, and the idea of a landing unit sits well. My only concern would be: does it make sense for it to be a champion? Should Athenians have swordsmen on par with swordsmen specialists like Romans, Iberians etc.

Indeed. Athens had fewer marines on their ships than other powers did, preffering swift maneuvering for ramming. They also boarded less for the same reason, relying on their professional rowing crews to hole and sink enemy ships before the need to board.

"Deikplous" and "Periplous" would make for great techs if ramming is ever implemented. 

 

1 hour ago, Outis said:

I will propose to make Scythian Archer not a champion from the Gymnasium, but rather a mercenary either from the barracks or simply replacing the current Cretan Archers for Athenians. My justification: should Athenians rely on elite archers the way archer specialists like Kushites do, or should they have foreign mercenary archers which complement their main hoplite army? I can't imagine these guys training in the Gymnasium side by side with Epilektoi :P.

I'd put the Scythian Archers either in the Fortress or the Prytaneion. Also, limit their number to around 20. They'd add some punch here and there, but the main force is still hoplites and peltasts.

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4 小时前,Outis 说:

My only concern would be: does it make sense for it to be a champion? Should Athenians have swordsmen on par with swordsmen specialists like Romans, Iberians etc.

 

These warriors were born to fight hand-to-hand on deck, and may not be able to adapt to positional warfare on land. They'd better not be champions, but train like Roman swordsmen from docks and warships in P1. As a flexible rather than powerful soldier.

Edited by AIEND
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2 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I'd put the Scythian Archers either in the Fortress or the Prytaneion. Also, limit their number to around 20. They'd add some punch here and there, but the main force is still hoplites and peltasts.

The Athenian Scythian archers seem to be slaves paid for from abroad, these people are also responsible for keeping the city policing, I feel they should be trained in the civic center and need more metal.

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8 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Iphicratean Reforms

 

  • IMHO, should be a special tech that reduces armor of your infantry, but increases their speed and maybe range (melee). Put it early, at Town or even possibly Village, so the player can make the choice, "Do I want faster infantry for raiding or heavier infantry for slugfests?"

This reform will actually make the Athenian infantry evolve into the later Macedonian pikemen, so if this reform makes the infantry more flexible, then also consider whether to modify the Macedonian, Seleucid and Ptolemaic pikemen Attributes.

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11 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I'd put the Scythian Archers either in the Fortress or the Prytaneion. Also, limit their number to around 20. They'd add some punch here and there, but the main force is still hoplites and peltasts.

Excellent idea to limit number, this way they keep champion status and do not have an overwhelming presence. Also excellent idea to train from the Prytaneion, so it is useful after techs are researched and heroes are trained. The Fortress is already useful later in the game.

8 hours ago, AIEND said:

The Athenian Scythian archers seem to be slaves paid for from abroad, these people are also responsible for keeping the city policing, I feel they should be trained in the civic center and need more metal.

Since they are acquired to maintain order among citizens, why don't we limit their number to a percentage of citizens than a fixed value? This would be an interesting novelty. And, training from the Prytaneion is in line with their official role.

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On 4/3/2022 at 4:04 AM, Outis said:

Excellent idea to limit number, this way they keep champion status and do not have an overwhelming presence. Also excellent idea to train from the Prytaneion, so it is useful after techs are researched and heroes are trained. The Fortress is already useful later in the game.

Since they are acquired to maintain order among citizens, why don't we limit their number to a percentage of citizens than a fixed value? This would be an interesting novelty. And, training from the Prytaneion is in line with their official role.

In addition, like the Han palace guards, suggest adding (or if not, changing them into) a melee unit, wielding either club or axe. That reflects their role more descriptively. Maybe give them an aura or two that boosts/weakens nearby citizen soldiers and support which could be a double-edged sword (figuratively).

On 3/3/2022 at 7:00 PM, AIEND said:

[Iphicratean Reforms] will actually make the Athenian infantry evolve into the later Macedonian pikemen, so if this reform makes the infantry more flexible, then also consider whether to modify the Macedonian, Seleucid and Ptolemaic pikemen Attributes.

Reiterating my current and simple suggestion for this reform tech: unlock two fast infantry units, which are not the marines nor Cretan archers. The rest is found on my previous posts here. A better idea, since the reforms itself seem out of the time-frame of the golden age of this faction: the hero himself should be on the field to open this technology, even after he is killed.

Pikemen are a whole different story, maybe Athens during the Hellenistic period, and in a separate faction from the current, with their mercenary (mistophoroi) pikemen. Thought this was about the current champion hoplite "changed into some proto-Philip II pikemen". Which specific attributes for the Hellenistic pikemen you want considered to be modified?

Note that if you have followed the older alpha versions, the mixed Greek faction had a champion hoplite-skirmisher hybrid, then the (probably) anachronistic thureophoros in 23, recruited from the now-deprecated royal stoa. These two are supposed to be replaced with the light peltast mentioned earlier.

For the marines, no problem for me if they can be "demoted" to citizen swordsmen. A compromise can be that when they reach elite, they are armored and no longer run primarily like the thorakites (heavy swordsmen). If that creates complexity in code, the aforementioned forked tech, choosing between fast or armored, has also been suggested. The latter will unlock another champion hoplite (around the same statistics as a Spartiate) and probably another one which the rest of you can decide.

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1 小时前,Carltonus 说:

重申我目前对这项改革技术的简单建议:解锁两个快速步兵单位,它们既不是海军陆战队也不是克里特弓箭手。 其余的可以在我以前的帖子中找到。 一个更好的主意,因为改革本身似乎超出了这个派系的黄金时代的时间框架:英雄本人应该在场上打开这项技术,即使在他被杀之后。

长枪兵是一个完全不同的故事,也许是希腊化时期的雅典,并且在与当前不同的派系中,他们的雇佣兵(mistophoroi)长枪兵。 以为这是关于当前的冠军重装步兵“变成了一些原始的菲利普二世长枪兵”。 您希望修改希腊化长枪兵的哪些特定属性?

请注意,如果您遵循较旧的 alpha 版本,则混合希腊派系有一个冠军 hoplite-skirmisher 混合体,然后是 23 中的(可能)不合时宜的 thureophoros,从现已弃用的皇家柱廊招募。 这两个应该被前面提到的轻盾取代。

对于海军陆战队来说,如果他们可以“降级”为公民剑士,对我来说没有问题。 一个折衷的办法是,当他们达到精英级别时,他们是装甲的,不再像 thorakites(重剑士)那样主要奔跑。 如果这会增加代码的复杂性,那么前面提到的分叉技术,在快速或装甲之间进行选择,也被建议使用。 后者将解锁另一个冠军重装步兵(与 Spartiate 的统计数据大致相同),并且可能是其他人可以决定的另一个。

Iphicrates should have changed the hoplite to use longer spears and lighter shields, thus becoming the prototype of later Macedonian pikemen. This type of soldier and the later Hellenistic pikemen were actually lighter than the hoplite, should not walk slower than the old hoplite, but should be more brisk, with more emphasis on using the length of the weapon to attack rather than relying on shields to resist. The game currently casts pikemen as sluggish meat shields, rather than soldiers who abandon protection for a more aggressive attack.

On the other hand I would prefer Athens to have a kind of ordinary citizen javelinmen rather than mercenaries or champions.
Perhaps the reform could be to turn the Athenian spearmen into pikemen?

Marines may be more effective on ships than on land, consider having marines stationed on ships to provide buffs to warships,should be used to highlight Athens' naval superiority.

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2 小时前,Carltonus 说:

另外,像汉宫守卫一样,建议增加(或者如果没有,将他们变成)一个近战单位,使用棍棒或斧头。 这更能描述他们的角色。 也许给他们一两个光环来增强/削弱附近的公民士兵和支持,这可能是一把双刃剑(形象地)。

Although these Scythians carried clubs and axes, I don't think that would give them the kind of authority that fasces had in the hands of Roman consuls. After all, they are slaves, and they are often just verbal threats, but they dare not use force against the citizens of Athens. After all, Athens is a democratic country.

I think they are more like security/police than gendarmerie, maybe can improve the environmental safety of citizens' daily life, improve labor efficiency through a halo?
But if so, most civilizations actually have this kind of role, and it would seem odd to just give it to Athens.
My feeling is that the Scythian archers can be eliminated simply because their job is not to appear on the battlefield.

Edited by AIEND
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At this rate from all the proposals, the Athenians will probably have three hoplites (maybe four), each of differing statistics: "Athenian Hoplite", "Chosen Hoplite" (similar statistics to a Spartiate), and "Light Hoplite" (the current epilektos). The Light Peltast has the long spear as a secondary attack, once implemented.

21 hours ago, AIEND said:

Iphicrates should have changed the hoplite to use longer spears and lighter shields, thus becoming the prototype of later Macedonian pikemen. This type of soldier and the later Hellenistic pikemen were actually lighter than the hoplite, should not walk slower than the old hoplite, but should be more brisk, with more emphasis on using the length of the weapon to attack rather than relying on shields to resist. The game currently casts pikemen as sluggish meat shields, rather than soldiers who abandon protection for a more aggressive attack.

Do not forget that Hellenistic pikemen in this game can assume the syntagma (rectangle) formation. The proposed proto-pikemen should form the phalanx like their fellow citizen hoplites, not that one. Call them "pikemen", but they still appear hoplite-like to me, just lighter and have a slight boost in attack range.

21 hours ago, AIEND said:

On the other hand I would prefer Athens to have a kind of ordinary citizen javelinmen rather than mercenaries or champions.
Perhaps the reform could be to turn the Athenian spearmen into pikemen?

Is there any problem with the Thracian peltasts (mercenary javelineers) or the podromoi (scout cavalry)? Mercenary and citizen, respectively. The latter probably describes your "ordinary citizen javelinmen", with a mount. Turning spearmen into pikemen is like fast-forwarding to Athens's golden age to the time of Alexander.

22 hours ago, AIEND said:

Marines may be more effective on ships than on land, consider having marines stationed on ships to provide buffs to warships,should be used to highlight Athens' naval superiority.

Naval concepts like ramming and boarding have not yet been coded into the game. Which buffs in particular?

21 hours ago, AIEND said:

Although these Scythians carried clubs and axes, I don't think that would give them the kind of authority that fasces had in the hands of Roman consuls. After all, they are slaves, and they are often just verbal threats, but they dare not use force against the citizens of Athens. After all, Athens is a democratic country.

I think they are more like security/police than gendarmerie, maybe can improve the environmental safety of citizens' daily life, improve labor efficiency through a halo?
But if so, most civilizations actually have this kind of role, and it would seem odd to just give it to Athens.
My feeling is that the Scythian archers can be eliminated simply because their job is not to appear on the battlefield.

No problem scrapping the Scythian archers completely, if their Cretan counterparts be recruited from the barracks without research requirements... Maybe an upgrade from the prythaneon as an alternative reflecting their duties?

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3 hours ago, Carltonus said:

按照所有提案的这个速度,雅典人可能会拥有三个(可能是四个)重装步兵,每个都有不同的统计数据:“雅典重装步兵”、“选择的重装步兵”(类似于 Spartiate 的统计数据)和“轻型重装步兵”(目前癫痫症)。 Light Peltast 拥有长矛作为次要攻击,一旦实施。

不要忘记这场比赛中的希腊化长枪兵可以采用宪法(矩形)阵型。 提议的原始长枪兵应该像他们的同胞重装步兵一样组成方阵,而不是那个。 称他们为“长枪兵”,但在我看来,他们仍然像重装步兵,只是更轻,攻击范围略有提升。

Thracian peltasts(雇佣标枪手)或 podromoi(侦察骑兵)有什么问题吗? 分别是雇佣兵和公民。 后者可能描述了您的“普通公民标枪兵”,带有坐骑。 将长矛兵变成长枪兵就像快进到雅典的黄金时代到亚历山大时代。

诸如撞击和登船之类的海军概念尚未编码到游戏中。 特别是哪个buff?

完全取消斯基泰弓箭手没问题,如果他们的克里特弓箭手在没有研究要求的情况下从军营招募......也许从 prythaneon 升级作为替代品,以反映他们的职责?

If the reform makes the soldiers use longer spears, they have to hold the spear with both hands, then it is not possible to adopt the same formation as the old hoplite, but a new formation should be dedicated to the reformed infantry.

Athens should have civic javelinmen in Greek style, why are the javelinmen now Thracians?

In the case of the Marine Corps, perhaps improving the protection of warships? After all, there were more shield-wielding soldiers standing on the boat.

I don't think it's too complicated, just let the Cretan archers train directly in the barracks.

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On 11/03/2022 at 5:21 AM, AIEND said:

If the reform makes the soldiers use longer spears, they have to hold the spear with both hands, then it is not possible to adopt the same formation as the old hoplite, but a new formation should be dedicated to the reformed infantry.

Hmm... that would require a sampling of the proposed proto-pikeman, as well as consensus from other members allowing the change to the pikeman-class unit. Note the illustration from previous page says that the "spear is lengthened to 12ft (3.6m)" which would argue a for slightly increased attack range while still remaining a champion hoplite, as compared to the ~20ft of the Macedonian sarissa. Here is the full version:

peltasta+ificr%25C3%25A1tida+2.jpg

On 11/03/2022 at 5:21 AM, AIEND said:

Athens should have civic javelinmen in Greek style, why are the javelinmen now Thracians?

That has been there since the Hellenic faction split between the three Greek ones. Any argument(s) against the mercenary Thracian skirmishers? Also take into account the other civilian ranged unit: the slinger. Now you want two types of civilian missile troops? Three types if you include the scout.

On 11/03/2022 at 5:21 AM, AIEND said:

In the case of the Marine Corps, perhaps improving the protection of warships? After all, there were more shield-wielding soldiers standing on the boat.

That is where visible garrisoning or the turrets system comes into play. Did you mean that said warships get a defensive bonus with a marine "garrisoning" or inside? 

On 11/03/2022 at 5:21 AM, AIEND said:

I don't think it's too complicated, just let the Cretan archers train directly in the barracks.

Agreed, but only when the champion archers are actually scrapped, so my opinion remains mixed. Regarding the "Maybe an upgrade from the prythaneon as an alternative reflecting their duties?" question, this is about the Scythian police. As a viable alternative, what bonuses can be added in lieu of replacing the Scythian archers?

On 24/04/2021 at 3:42 AM, Silier said:

athen champion.png

For the epilektoi, has a modeller thought of creating at least a separate quilted leather cuirass like the one on the left, or it was already made?

@wackyserious and @wowgetoffyourcellphone, if either of you have the time to present (the two of) us the light peltast with oval wicker shield from the illustration on the first page, that would be appreciated. This can be a perfect replacement for the champion skirmisher wielding the (probably) anachronistic thureos from alpha 23.

Edited by Carltonus
Added the full illustration of the Iphicratean light hoplite
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