Addition of Han Chinese to 0AD

[LetswaveaBook]

18 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

The crossbow cavalry would have used small crossbows. There were semi-automatic designs as well as weapons that shoot 4 projectiles at the same time (rifle vs shotgun). They were not much stronger than a regular bow but had lethal accuracy and range, like a modern gun. 

I know from AoE2 that the repeating crossbow exists, but that does not mean that it was an effective cavalry weapon. A crossbow does not generate energy and all the energy the bolt has needs to be put into it by the users muscles. Actually it is even worse, as crossbows are bad a translating stored energy into the power of the bolt. No matter how you put it, it will never be as effective as a crossbow on foot.

The repeating crossbow seems easy to reload, but that comes with a drawback that it is unlikely through armor. I suspect that padded armor would probably even give good protection against the crossbow shown in the video.

I would gladly believe you if you could provide a reference on ancient (Chinese) crossbow cavalry.

3 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

Where are our balancing advisors?!

A question out of laziness, is the cost increment for ministers implemented and does the unique blacksmith tech work? You need to fix that before serious reviews can be made.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

34 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

the cost increment for ministers implemented

Just remove the cost increase feature, then set their auras to "stackable": false, until the Minister cost feature can be properly implemented (I'd like to see this feature implemented for DE's Cult Statues, actually). The only reason for the increasing cost of each Minister is to balance the stackability of their auras. 

Edited April 22, 2021 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Yekaterina]

m7600 has a point here. You can never fully get the balance right until you let the players test the strength of this civ in competitive matches. After which they will start filing in suggestions / complaints and we can act accordingly.  

[Genava55]

On 21/04/2021 at 7:00 PM, Stan` said:

There is... me.

Since you are doing everything, working on every front, it is up to you to decide. There is no art department in reality xD

[Stan`]

14 hours ago, m7600 said:

So, essentially, there's two different propositions in this this discussion:

1) Add the Han Chinese to Alpha 25, even if they're not 100% historically accurate or balanced, and work on improving those aspects after they're in the main game.

2) Don't add the Han Chinese to Alpha 25, until everyone agrees that they're good enough, both from the point of view of history as well as balance.

I opt for the first one. And I feel the same way about the other civs in Terra Magna, as well as the Garmantes. If the game was in a Beta stage, maybe this discussion would be different. But for an Alpha, they're fine. In fact, they're far better than just "fine". They're not "programmer art" by any means. On the contrary, the artwork of these civs is of a professional quality, even if they're not 100% accurate from a historical point of view.

If you want to fix some of the flaws Nescio mentioned with buildings be my guest (New walls and or new fortress)

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

Since you are doing everything, working on every front, it is up to you to decide. There is no art department in reality xD

Yeah so much pressure

[ChronA]

Probably a minority opinion: I oppose adding any more civs to Empires Ascendant at this point in its development. In fact I think the development would benefit greatly from temporarily dropping official support for all but 6 or so... although I know there is exactly 0% chance of that ever happening, because it would royally piss off and probably destroy the entire community that sustains this project. As such I am hesitant to even air this prospective. It feels like just adding another rage post to the fire, but I think it is vital to any collaborative work to try to understand how others are feeling, so here it goes:

Great buildings must be built atop strong foundations if they are to endure, and in game development terms the foundations of an experience are the gameplay features and balance design. But 0 AD's foundations are weak. In terms of gameplay, Empires Ascendant is just a very mediocre Age of Empires clone. Its distinguishing feature (and saving grace) is literally that it is open source. There are a hundred different ideas on these forum about how to shore up those foundations: battalions, morale, 10 different management-minigame concepts for city building and resource gathering, 20 ideas for new aura and damage-type interactions, 50 ideas for making better-differentiated unit roles... The problem is how are any of those ideas ever realistically going to make it into the game?

There are currently 13 going on 14 fully fleshed out and playable civilizations inhabiting this unfinished tech demo of a game. If any new feature breaks even one of those civs (whether through balance perturbation, or missing assets, or just rubbing someone with a practiced playstyle the wrong way) the commentariat will raise an unholy stink about it and the idea will die. This is not a situation that is conducive to agile evolution. And of course I also understand how it got to be this way. In open source you have to make use of the development resources you have at hand. However that doesn't preclude applying foresight to prevent future impasses.

Ancient China is an incredibly cool culture (one of my favorites), but what would adding them to the game at this point in time actually achieve? Would it help refine the balance of the game. Would it explore new unit dynamics? Would it just be a superficial reskin of other civs that are already in the game? Or would it contribute to the slow death of gameplay development by bloat and crushing inertia? I know what I think: adding towers to a fortress built on the sand is folly. But then I'm not the guy hauling the stones, I'm just the feckless guy who's watching from the hill and shouting that your castle is leaning.

 

[Stan`]

Thats... an interesting rant.

However I don't think reducing the number of civs would change anything. Art, Programming, and Balancing are done with three different types of people. So you're not stealing programmers time by adding more assets (unless they are really crappy assets)

42 minutes ago, ChronA said:

Empires Ascendant is just a very mediocre Age of Empires

Thank you  <3

42 minutes ago, ChronA said:

There are currently 13 going on 14 fully fleshed out and playable civilizations inhabiting this unfinished tech demo of a game. If any new feature breaks even one of those civs (whether through balance perturbation, or missing assets, or just rubbing someone with a practiced playstyle the wrong way) the commentariat will raise an unholy stink about it and the idea will die. This is not a situation that is conducive to agile evolution. And of course I also understand how it got to be this way. In open source you have to make use of the development resources you have at hand. However that doesn't preclude applying foresight to prevent future impasses.

Well sure sure but so will going on steam, or attracting new players. it's not about the civilisation, it's about the game not being finished, and probably never being finished.

43 minutes ago, ChronA said:

Ancient China is an incredibly cool culture (one of my favorites), but what would adding them to the game at this point in time actually achieve? Would it help refine the balance of the game. Would it explore new unit dynamics? Would it just be a superficial reskin of other civs that are already in the game? Or would it contribute to the slow death of gameplay development by bloat and crushing inertia? I know what I think: adding towers to a fortress built on the sand is folly. But then I'm not the guy hauling the stones, I'm just the feckless guy who's watching from the hill and shouting that your castle is leaning.

Well another way to prevent the castle from leaning is getting your hand dirty and making everyone profit from your vision which you just did. Well the han have new dynamic with the ministers. and the balancing team is supposed to work on differentiating the civilization again.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, ChronA said:

If any new feature breaks even one of those civs (whether through balance perturbation, or missing assets, or just rubbing someone with a practiced playstyle the wrong way) the commentariat will raise an unholy stink about it and the idea will die. 

Already happens. Every alpha, but especially A24.

 

[alre]

@ChronA I liked your rant. However, I don't think you are quite right.

For starters, what @wowgetoffyourcellphone said is very much true, balances breaks every new alpha, regardless of the number of civs. Then, I think you may miss that in FLOSS projects like this one, it's not that doing some work for a certain feature really takes away work from other features, becouse everyone does what they like better. Of course some balance is needed, but this is why this discussion is happening. At the end, it's really up to @Stan`.

Edited April 23, 2021 by alre

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 hours ago, ChronA said:

Great buildings must be built atop strong foundations if they are to endure, and in game development terms the foundations of an experience are the gameplay features and balance design. But 0 AD's foundations are weak. In terms of gameplay, Empires Ascendant is just a very mediocre Age of Empires clone. Its distinguishing feature (and saving grace) is literally that it is open source. There are a hundred different ideas on these forum about how to shore up those foundations: battalions, morale, 10 different management-minigame concepts for city building and resource gathering, 20 ideas for new aura and damage-type interactions, 50 ideas for making better-differentiated unit roles... The problem is how are any of those ideas ever realistically going to make it into the game

The game already had some planned features,  they are not just random ideas.

http://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/GameplayFeatureStatus

 

And yes, every alpha breaks the game.

Edited April 23, 2021 by Lion.Kanzen

[Yekaterina]

ChronA I am afraid I cannot agree with you here. 

3 hours ago, ChronA said:

Empires Ascendant is just a very mediocre Age of Empires clone

I think 0AD is superior to Age of Empires and it is not a clone. The graphics of 0AD is miles ahead of AoE's fixed isometric view and the gridded landscape that does not even allow you to rotate buildings. With 0AD you use your brain in planning the strategy and then immerse yourself in the intense fighting animation and sound effects, unlike AoE's 90s style pixilated I don't know what graphics. The art and landscape models of 0AD are obviously more realistic than what you get in AoE...

There are of course similarities between 0AD and AoE as both are RTS games but 0AD has many unique features that AoE don't have. They may have started off as a mod but now it is completely independent of AoE, just like I can't say you are a monkey because you had the same ancestor. 

4 hours ago, ChronA said:

There are currently 13 going on 14 fully fleshed out and playable civilizations inhabiting this unfinished tech demo of a game. If any new feature breaks even one of those civs (whether through balance perturbation, or missing assets, or just rubbing someone with a practiced playstyle the wrong way) the commentariat will raise an unholy stink about it and the idea will die. This is not a situation that is conducive to agile evolution. And of course I also understand how it got to be this way. In open source you have to make use of the development resources you have at hand. However that doesn't preclude applying foresight to prevent future impasses.

How do we know what's good and what's bad if we don't experiment it? After a few games the players will express their views on the forum, then the devs will act accordingly. Being afraid of making a mistake will stop you from progressing forward. 

 

4 hours ago, ChronA said:

Ancient China is an incredibly cool culture (one of my favorites), but what would adding them to the game at this point in time actually achieve? Would it help refine the balance of the game. Would it explore new unit dynamics? Would it just be a superficial reskin of other civs that are already in the game? Or would it contribute to the slow death of gameplay development by bloat and crushing inertia?

Han Chinese has an unique unit composition that fixes some imperfections in other civs and introduces new strategies. For example, if you want to do a spear cav rush followed by an archer push then the Chinese is perfect for you. If you like Kushites but also need catapults then Han is the ideal civ for you!

[Lion.Kanzen]

AoE DE is the most that resembles the historical theme.

 

How do you think I felt when I discovered this game in 2004. (the first time I heard about the project). I wanted an AoE that was like Empire Earth, RoN and AoE 2.

 

AoE does not fill that gap of playing with Romans, well represented Romans, not generic soldiers with Greek helmets.

With formations, with their enemies, with other civilizations.

 

And the feeling of playing with the factions that we want to design and manufacture.

AoE IV So far if it is mediocre, it is only a copy to sell in 3D of AoE 2. You can read those impressions in the comments of the videos in YT.

We were looking for a free AoE, without restrictions, without DLC or season passes.

 

Without political correctness (check AoE III DE).

 

Libre without the need to connect to Xbox live.

Available for computers and Mac OS X.

 

Even with the potential to be on Android.

 

Only total war has a decent level to have good mods. There is no strategy game that is so open.

 

Tell me a game that have Romans?

 

 

 

[Nescio]

11 hours ago, m7600 said:

I can take a shot at it, but I'll need some references. If anyone wants to provide them, that would be great.

Have a look at this thread. Stone walls, paper lanterns, and Qing dragon flags are some of the things the Han shouldn't have: 0 A.D. is not a Disney film. Perhaps you could start with designing a new fortress or new towers?

[Stan`]

Towers are not a priority. Prefer existing over new if we really have to fix things.

[Nescio]

7 minutes ago, Stan` said:

Towers are not a priority. Prefer existing over new if we really have to fix things.

Wood was the primary building material in ancient China and rammed earth was used for platforms and defensive walls. However, the mod's existing tower has stone architecture (as do some other structures), which is wrong (as is that Qing dragon flag):

[Lopess]

As I understand it, the Han did not use stones in their architecture. So would a modification of the main texture to a mud clay work? (with some buildings using wood instead) In the eye candy part it seems to be easy since they are Props but what should be put in place of the lanterns and the stone dragon?

A positive point is that the existing structures can be added to the Millennium A.D., thus missing only new units: D (or not?)

[Stan`]

5 minutes ago, Lopess said:

As I understand it, the Han did not use stones in their architecture. So would a modification of the main texture to a mud clay work? (with some buildings using wood instead) In the eye candy part it seems to be easy since they are Props but what should be put in place of the lanterns and the stone dragon?

A positive point is that the existing structures can be added to the Millennium A.D., thus missing only new units: D (or not?)

Probably yeah . Need to fix the normal too. It'#s some texture work. It's just not my strong suit. @LordGood
or @Enrique
could probably do it single handedly

 

The bixie will stay as long as we don't have a proper replacement. Removing them is not an option for me.

 

[Stan`]

That'

52 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Wood was the primary building material in ancient China and rammed earth was used for platforms and defensive walls. However, the mod's existing tower has stone architecture (as do some other structures), which is wrong (as is that Qing dragon flag):

Still it's one tower. Not three.

[Lopess]

A change in texture will be easy (I tested it here just to see the concept). Eliminate the lanterns too, however it will have to be in the blender. I don't see many problems in the current towers. In my view, the greatest difficulty will be in the new walls. If nobody has done it yet, I can eliminate the lanterns from the structures and upload the changes to the github, one less job so that I can work more seriously on the structures.

[Stan`]

1 hour ago, Lopess said:

A change in texture will be easy (I tested it here just to see the concept). Eliminate the lanterns too, however it will have to be in the blender. I don't see many problems in the current towers. In my view, the greatest difficulty will be in the new walls. If nobody has done it yet, I can eliminate the lanterns from the structures and upload the changes to the github, one less job so that I can work more seriously on the structures.

Would be great thanks

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

A sample of examples of Bixies from the Eastern and Western Han periods:

 

https://www.comuseum.com/arts/han-jade-bixie/

http://www.alaintruong.com/archives/2020/10/05/38572290.html

 

7 hours ago, Stan` said:

The bixie will stay as long as we don't have a proper replacement. Removing them is not an option for me.

Keep em. They are an excellent eye candy piece and a nice cultural element not without some historical justification. 

Honestly, I feel the same way about the lanterns (DE will be keeping them), but the bixies are more justifiable.

[Lion.Kanzen]

On 23/04/2021 at 8:39 AM, ChronA said:

Probably a minority opinion: I oppose adding any more civs to Empires Ascendant at this point in its development

we are still in alpha, this the moment.

[Stan`]

You know who made the bixies. Maybe if he has extra time

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 minutes ago, Stan` said:

You know who made the bixies. Maybe if he has extra time

I could help with a single texture if you give me an example.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

16 minutes ago, Stan` said:

You know who made the bixies. Maybe if he has extra time

I'm not saying they need remodeled. I'm just saying there are examples of bixies used in art and jewelry from the 2 Han periods.