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Addition of Han Chinese to 0AD


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To be entirely honest I think those anachronisms are not a very big problem. First of all we must know that Han army was not very uniform because it has absorbed many other cultures, so it is perfectly acceptable to have a few odd features. The building style from later dynasties are not exactly destroying the authenticity of the civ.

Most importantly, the majority of players won't care that much about such minor details in the heat of a battle / competitive match. Being able to distinguish units apart is more important. 

About no distinctive colours... we could make each unit hold a flag representing the player colour? The Han army did love their flags.

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4 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

I think it should be planned in a roadmap. Including them in A25 could cause a delay of its release, taking again very long to finish it. Probably it is better to include them for A26.

I think that is fair. But it really depends on how long A24 can exist. Looking at the history of 0AD it seems that A23 is particularly long-lived whereas some other alphas only lasted for a few months. 

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38 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

I think it should be planned in a roadmap. Including them in A25 could cause a delay of its release, taking again very long to finish it. Probably it is better to include them for A26.

 As I see it, it is a very long time to add a ready-made civ to the main game. However, I understand that sometimes things added to the main game take a long time to be discussed and implemented.

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48 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

I think it should be planned in a roadmap. Including them in A25 could cause a delay of its release, taking again very long to finish it. Probably it is better to include them for A26.

It won't delay things because that's the art department mostly if the balancing is somewhat okay.

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30 minutes ago, Stan` said:

It won't delay things because that's the art department mostly if the balancing is somewhat okay.

How much is available the art department? Personally I think that it is better to split the two development in parallels. Doing the art development apart while the others are working on the development of A25 (which concerns a lot of questions about balancing and differentiating I think) then when A25 is ready, starting the implementation and dedicating A26 especially for the implementation of this new civ.

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13 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

How much is available the art department?

There is... me.

Spoiler

Personally I think that it is better to split the two development in parallels. Doing the art development apart while the others are working on the development of A25 (which concerns a lot of questions about balancing and differentiating I think) then when A25 is ready, starting the implementation and dedicating A26 especially for the implementation of this new civ.

That assumes we have the resources to make it perfect, which we don't.

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7 minutes ago, Stan` said:

There is... me.

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Personally I think that it is better to split the two development in parallels. Doing the art development apart while the others are working on the development of A25 (which concerns a lot of questions about balancing and differentiating I think) then when A25 is ready, starting the implementation and dedicating A26 especially for the implementation of this new civ.

That assumes we have the resources to make it perfect, which we don't.

Alexander will be available soon

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I tried the mod and the most interesting thing I wanted to try out is massing ministers. The mod does currently not increase the price of ministers, but I won´t judge it for that as it is no design flaw but an implication flaw. Some observation about ministers:

0. There idea needs some more detail.

0.1 The stats are off, you get those much reward for low investments.

0.2 The costs do not increase per minister.

1. The multiplicative effect is really strong.

1.1 10 ministers increase productivity by a factor 1.1¹⁰=2.6. So if the ministers support 30 workers, the combined effectiveness will be like 78 workers(Ignoring walking distances). This makes a population of 50 do work similar to 78 workers, freeing up 28 population space.

1.2 10 ministers make p3 very cheap as well and quick to research as monastery technologies.

1.3 a group of 20 ministers allow to build forward CCs very quick,

2. The cost increasing idea could give problems

2.1 If you batch train ministers, the game needs to know that the second minister should cost more than the 1st. So a batch of 10 should not be 10 times the cost of 1 minister. Same problem would arise if you train the from multiple government centers.

 

Also please do not add crossbow cavalry and sword cavalry to the game.

Crossbows require a lot of power to load and you would use all the muscles in your body load it, including those in your legs. By the way, you generate way more power with your legs than your arms. On horseback you cannot effectively use the muscles in your legs to aid to loading the crossbows. In addition there are other factors that make reloading a crossbow on a horse very impractical. Mounted crossbowmen(that dismount to reload) are fine to me, but cavalry crossbows are historically inaccurate.

If you are able to afford a horse and a sword, you would also have the wealth to either afford a spear or some javelins. Since the spear is cheaper and more effective than the sword on mounted combat, cavalry always preferred the spear as their main weapon. I would say that cavalry with the sword as their main weapon would be historically inaccurate.

 

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22 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

If you are able to afford a horse and a sword, you would also have the wealth to either afford a spear or some javelins. Since the spear is cheaper and more effective than the sword on mounted combat, cavalry always preferred the spear as their main weapon. I would say that cavalry with the sword as their main weapon would be historically inaccurate.

China was the first to mass produce things so in theory they could have had such cavalry.

22 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

Crossbows require a lot of power to load and you would use all the muscles in your body load it, including those in your legs. By the way, you generate way more power with your legs than your arms. On horseback you cannot effectively use the muscles in your legs to aid to loading the crossbows. In addition there are other factors that make reloading a crossbow on a horse very impractical. Mounted crossbowmen(that dismount to reload) are fine to me, but cavalry crossbows are historically inaccurate.

Not the chinese variants which are the precursor, and are really different from say the gastaphrete.

 

Feel free to suggest stats change for the ministers / make a PR.

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1 hour ago, Stan` said:

China was the first to mass produce things so in theory they could have had such cavalry.

In theory that is possible.  The problem is that spears are generally always preferred to swords in most situations due to better reach; the advantage of the sword was its utility as a side-arm, not as a main weapon.  The idea of troops using the sword alone is generally a pure fantasy idea (with a few exceptions).

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I'd love to see the Han Chinese, Zapotecs, Xiongu and Garamantes in Alpha 25.

Sounds crazy, but the hard work has already been done. Now it's just a matter of adjusting a few things here and there. 

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3 hours ago, LetswaveaBook said:

If you are able to afford a horse and a sword, you would also have the wealth to either afford a spear or some javelins. Since the spear is cheaper and more effective than the sword on mounted combat, cavalry always preferred the spear as their main weapon. I would say that cavalry with the sword as their main weapon would be historically inaccurate.

I am afraid it is not that simple. In literary works the more elite cavalry soldiers have a weapon that was a mixture of axe and spear: a very long spear that has a sharp tip but also an axe blade attacked near the tip, so it can both stab and chop. Sometimes wealthier recruits have their own specially crafted weapons that best suited them personally. However for laymen they used regular spears or double headed spears. 

The crossbow cavalry would have used small crossbows. There were semi-automatic designs as well as weapons that shoot 4 projectiles at the same time (rifle vs shotgun). They were not much stronger than a regular bow but had lethal accuracy and range, like a modern gun. 

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12 hours ago, Nescio said:

I meant art improvements, some examples I've requested more than once on these forums in the past. Britons and Gauls shouldn't have a donkey trader, Athenians and Spartans should. The SQPR ought to be removed from Roman wall textures. The Roman civic centre needs to be replaced. Macedonian dock. Wall towers.

I propose we take those civs out of A25 or until they can be fixed!

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27 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I propose we take those civs out of A25 or until they can be fixed!

That's the spirit! Nothing short of perfection should be included in this game. On that note, since the game has a bit of lag, I propose to shut down the multiplayer lobby until it's fixed.

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Current unit roster in the mod:

 

Support

Female Citizen

Healer

Trader

  • Shāng Rén

Government Minister

  • Zhèngfǔ Bùzhǎng

 

Infantry

Spearman

  • Cháng Máo Bīng

Swordsman

  • Dāo Fú Shǒu

Archer

  • Gōng Shǒu

Crossbowman

  • Nǔ Shǒu

 

Cavalry

Spearman

  • Tú Qí

Swordsman

  • Qīng Qí

Archer

  • Gōng Qí

 

Champions

Infantry Swordsman

  • Hu Ben

Infantry Archer

  • Hu Ben

Cavalry Spearman

  •  

Cavalry Crossbowman

  • Nǔ Qí

 

Heroes

Han Xin

Liu Bang

Wei Qing

 

Siege

Stone Thrower

  • Mangonel

Bolt Shooter

  • Shoushe Nǔ
  • Does not need to pack or unpack

Siege Tower

  • Lin Chong Lu Gong Che

 

Ships

Fishing Boat

  • Yú Pái

Merchant Ship

  • Shāng Chuán

Light Warship

  • Zhuàng Chuán

Medium Warship

  • Lóu Chuán

Heavy Warship

  • Dà Lóu Chuán
  • Trains
    • Infantry Swordsman
    • Infantry Archer

Fireship

  • Chì Chuán

 

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One thing people love is 0 A.D.'s attention to detail and historical accuracy.

Including the Han into A24 was discussed some time ago. It didn't happen. To the best of my knowledge, none of the issues of the Han mod has been solved since. I fail to see why it's suddenly good enough to be included right now.

Again, I'd love to see the Han included in game, if possible in A25, and no, not everything has to be perfect. Nevertheless, the most glaring flaws should be addressed first.

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Here is an improved version of the first post, with better icons by me and @wowgetoffyourcellphone

han_china.pyromod

Nerfed heavily the minister from 10% to 2%

I think I can live with being able to batch all minister at once giving you a bonus.

2 hours ago, Nescio said:

One thing people love is 0 A.D.'s attention to detail and historical accuracy.

Nobody is contesting that.

2 hours ago, Nescio said:

Including the Han into A24 was discussed some time ago. It didn't happen. To the best of my knowledge, none of the issues of the Han mod has been solved since. I fail to see why it's suddenly good enough to be included right now.

Initially it didn't happen because it was the best quality mod we had around. Now that there are plenty other mods it's no longer.  Else it would have been included long ago.

 

"None" is a plain lie. I've fixed a lot of issues reported by @wolflance and @Ayakashi over the years. Not all sure. I've also fixed some minor things like the market's well. But I've been busy doing everything else.

2 hours ago, Nescio said:

Again, I'd love to see the Han included in game, if possible in A25, and no, not everything has to be perfect. Nevertheless, the most glaring flaws should be addressed first.

Why can't that be part of not perfect?

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11 minutes ago, Stan` said:

That assumes we have the resources to make it perfect, which we don't.

Even if you had plenty of resources it won't be perfect and there is no need for it to be either.

If Han is eligible to be added in principle, then just go for it.

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