5000 years ago Sahara was a green landscape with lakes and rivers

[jonbaer]

 

[Loki1950]

BTW just grabbed the original photo it's 6510x3510 so lots of detail and a detail for our map makers Carthage was a major exporter of grain till the Punic Wars.

Enjoy the Choice  

[sphyrth]

... and the Amazon is following suit.

[av93]

That it's a very interesting topic. I would like to study regenerative agriculture (but I have neither the money or the time)

[Sundiata]

5 hours ago, av93 said:

That it's a very interesting topic. I would like to study regenerative agriculture (but I have neither the money or the time)

There are enormous aquifers in the Sahara, such as the North Western Sahara Aquifer System, the Nubian Sandstone Aquifer System, the Lake Chad Basin Aquifer System, and Iullemeden Aquifer System, dating to the African Humid Period. Regenerative agriculture, or at least agricultural developments in the Sahara, are technically feasible to an extent. Muammar Gaddafi actually successfully exploited the Nubian Sandstone Aquifer with the construction of the Great Man-Made River, "the world's largest irrigation project". Problem is that the water is often very deep... Like, more 500 meters below the surface. The entire Sahara is also notoriously difficult to control from a political perspective...

[balduin]

There is actually a project called the Great Green Wall, which tries to stop the desertification of the Sahara by planting trees. The amazing thing is, it seems to work. At least in the countries with the political will, for example Senegal.

[soshanko]

I knew that Sahara and Egypt was a Green area at the time before 8000-10000bc. During that time this area was full of animals to hunt. then when the Desertification process started the peoples migrated near to The great Nile and Oasis areas. The desertification process was contemporary to the Natufian Culture in the middle east. at the end of the last glacial period a drastic change on climate was happening. Temperature grew hotter and as an impact the Natufian peoples lost their wild grain and the Saharan and Egyptian peoples lost their hunting ground. The Carthagian Grain export may be cheap import from Egypt as Carthage was a Trade nation.

Edited September 2, 2019 by soshanko
more accurate word using

[winnerswithoutlosers]

A green Sahara would devastate the Atlantic plankton population plus some other places on the east coast of the Americas (less significantly). Including the Amazon I guess. Dust blowing from the Sahara west across the Atlantic plays a crucial role in the modern ecosystem.

[balduin]

@winnerswithoutlosers the Sahara is expanding rapidly. The idea of the Great Green Wall is to prevent the expansion.

 

@soshanko Do you know why the Desertification process started?

[Sundiata]

Just now, winnerswithoutlosers said:

A green Sahara would devastate the Atlantic plankton population plus some other places on the east coast of the Americas (less significantly). Including the Amazon I guess. Dust blowing from the Sahara west across the Atlantic plays a crucial role in the modern ecosystem.

I'm a little skeptical. I've heard the claim before. Even saying that it would destroy the Amazon. A hyperbole assumption if you ask me, considering that the Amazon didn't just disappear the last time the Sahara was green (though it was smaller).

About the plankton, some studies have shown that global plankton populations have already dropped by more than 40% since 1950, while others note rapid plankton growth in the North Atlantic, both phenomenon directly tied to global CO2 levels. A greening of the Sahara could significantly reduce global CO2 levels, cooling the climate, and rather lead to the stabilisation of plankton levels. The dust also mostly comes from a specific place in the Sahara (Bodélé Depression), so, if we just leave that place a desert, we should be ok. 

 

Just now, balduin said:

Do you know why the Desertification process started?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_African_climate_cycles

(of course, human activity is making things way worse than it needs to be)

Edited September 2, 2019 by Sundiata

[soshanko]

57 minutes ago, balduin said:

Do you know why the Desertification process started?

 

1 hour ago, soshanko said:

at the end of the last glacial period a drastic change on climate was happening. Temperature grew hotter and as an impact the Natufian peoples lost their wild grain and the Saharan and Egyptian peoples lost their hunting ground.

 

[winnerswithoutlosers]

“Each year, over one hundred million tons of Saharan dust gets blown across the Atlantic, some of it reaching as far as the Amazon River Basin. The minerals in the dust replenish nutrients in rainforest soils, which are continually depleted by drenching, tropical rains.” Quoted from NOAA.

Anyway, I doubt there will ever come a day when 100% of North Africa is green. I was just highlighting the impact Sahara has on the environment.

[Sundiata]

Just now, winnerswithoutlosers said:

I was just highlighting the impact Sahara has on the environment.

Yeah, it's definitely an interesting and complicated topic. Over here in West Africa it does this every winter:

Harmattan. Dust, EVERYWHERE! It's horrible, lol... Some years it's not so bad, but some years it's extreme. The air is super dry. You can taste sand on your cracking lips all day long. It can even affect your breathing. Sometimes no rain for 4 months straight. Not even a drop, even in the forested zones. I guess it's not as bad as winter snow blizzards though...

[Lion.Kanzen]

15 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

Yeah, it's definitely an interesting and complicated topic. Over here in West Africa it does this every winter:

Harmattan. Dust, EVERYWHERE! It's horrible, lol... Some years it's not so bad, but some years it's extreme. The air is super dry. You can taste sand on your cracking lips all day long. It can even affect your breathing. Sometimes no rain for 4 months straight. Not even a drop, even in the forested zones. I guess it's not as bad as winter snow blizzards though...

Which month ?

[Sundiata]

Just now, Lion.Kanzen said:

Which month ?

The winds blow from North to South like this between November and March, but it's usually worst between December/February. 

[Genava55]

On 9/2/2019 at 9:20 PM, Sundiata said:

I'm a little skeptical. I've heard the claim before. Even saying that it would destroy the Amazon. A hyperbole assumption if you ask me, considering that the Amazon didn't just disappear the last time the Sahara was green (though it was smaller).

About the plankton, some studies have shown that global plankton populations have already dropped by more than 40% since 1950, while others note rapid plankton growth in the North Atlantic, both phenomenon directly tied to global CO2 levels. A greening of the Sahara could significantly reduce global CO2 levels, cooling the climate, and rather lead to the stabilisation of plankton levels. The dust also mostly comes from a specific place in the Sahara (Bodélé Depression), so, if we just leave that place a desert, we should be ok. 

Some plankton are dropping, other are increasing, the trend is difficult to assess currently, most scientists are unsure of this publication and remain unconvinced because there is a sampling issue from the data. Most of the monitoring data are not continuous in time and in space.

 

If you are interested, the impact of an afforestation of the Sahara is discussed here:

https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s10584-009-9626-y.pdf

https://www.nature.com/articles/srep46443

[Sundiata]

 

On 9/2/2019 at 9:20 PM, Sundiata said:

The dust also mostly comes from a specific place in the Sahara (Bodélé Depression), so, if we just leave that place a desert, we should be ok. 

Just now, Genava55 said:

https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s10584-009-9626-y.pdf

Welp, so no more Saharan mineral dust for the Amazon, I guess... At least the cattle herders of Chad will be happy...

Edited September 4, 2019 by Sundiata

[healthfreak]

So much has changed over the last 5000 years. One wouldn't recognize it for the former appearance.

[fabio]

Thought the same yesterday, while flying over the Eastern Desert!

[Sundiata]

Check this out:

In the Ennedi Plateau, Northern Chad, middle of the Sahara: there are "guelta's", or permanent waterholes, with a striking secret.

 

Camels, in the Sahara, seems about right:

 

More camels, nothing special here...

 

Wait, whut? A Neolithic remnant of West African crocodiles, with dwarfism, say what?

 

Middle of the Sahara... Crocodile...

 

Imagine being lost in the Sahara, and after 100's of kilometers of wandering through the sandy desert, dying of thirst, you finally find water! And then a crocodile eats you 

[LordGood]

27 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

Imagine being lost in the Sahara, and after 100's of kilometers of wandering through the sandy desert, dying of thirst, you finally find water! And then a crocodile eats you 

I hate it when that happens 

[Sundiata]

Just now, LordGood said:

I hate it when that happens 

I know, right?

[Stan`]

*Rofling in the distance*

[Nescio]

1 hour ago, Sundiata said:

Wait, whut? A Neolithic remnant of West African crocodiles, with dwarfism, say what?

Middle of the Sahara... Crocodile...

Imagine being lost in the Sahara, and after 100's of kilometers of wandering through the sandy desert, dying of thirst, you finally find water! And then a crocodile eats you 

Crocodylus suchus is named “desert crocodile” for a reason. (It's also the species kept in Egyptian temples and for producing mummies, because they tend to be smaller and less aggressive hence less dangerous than Nile crocodiles (Crocodylus niloticus)).

[Sundiata]

Just now, Nescio said:

Crocodylus suchus is named “desert crocodile” for a reason. (It's also the species kept in Egyptian temples and for producing mummies, because they tend to be smaller and less aggressive hence less dangerous than Nile crocodiles (Crocodylus niloticus)).

Yup!

Check this out:

Quote

PLINY THE ELDER, NATURAL HISTORY 1-11
§ 8.38.2 
Moreover there is also a tribe of human beings right on the Nile, named after the Island of Tentyrus on which it dwells, that is hostile to this monster. They are of small stature but have a readiness of mind in this employment only that is remarkable. The creature in question is terrible against those who run away but runs away from those who pursue it. But these men alone dare to go against them; they actually dive into the river and mounting on their back as if riding a horse, when they yawn with the head thrown backward to bite, insert a staff into the month, and holding the staff at both ends with their right and left hands, drive their prisoners to the land as if with bridles, and by terrifying them even merely with their shouts compel them to disgorge the recently swallowed bodies for burial. Consequently this island only is not visited by crocodiles, and the scent of this race of men drives them away, as that of the Psylli does snakes. This animal is said to have dim sight in the water, but to be very keen-sighted when out of it; and to pass four months of the winter in a cave continuously without food. Some persons think that this alone of animals goes on growing in size as long as it lives; but it lives a long time.

Now check this out

Quote

Roman statue of an African Acrobat from early Imperial period excavated from the Villa Patrizi, via Nomentana, Rome, Italy. A young African performs an acrobatic trick very similar to those performed by tribal members from an area of the Nile, the Tentyitae (described by Pliny in Naturalis Historia), where skilled divers dive into the water from the backs of crocodiles. The work is based on a hellenistic original and here has beed adapted for the Roman period as a fountain decoration. The hole in the acrobats mouth is a water spout. Inv 40009, The National Roman Museum, Rome, Italy The National Roman Museum, Rome, Italy

1st century BC - 1st century AD

 

In Northern Ghana, in Paga, we also have a sacred pond with crocodiles. There's a taboo on harming them, so they've lost all fear of people. They're also fed by the community, so they're friendly. Apparently so friendly that kids can swim in the pond with them... These aren't confined crocodiles or anything. Just free roaming chilled out reptiles.

It's like a scaly doggo

 

Great with kids

 

I love that this guy wore a suit and tie to go and pet the crocs

 

Popular with the tourists as well.

 

These animals just don't care... 

 

Not one bit...

 

I've actually gone swimming at Ada a couple of times, downstream of Lake Volta close to the coast. I was a little shocked to find out after swimming in that river so many times that there are totally crocodiles in there! lol I met a fisherman who "collected" them. He had a pool in his backyard with more than a dozen live crocs from the same place I was just swimming... My face went a little pale when I saw them... But it seems that the southern crocodiles don't really attack people either. I had a similar thing happen in the North. Chilling close to the water's edge by a large pond in a nature reserve (I should have known better). Later when I walked by the pond with a group of other visitors to the reserve, I realized that there were literally dozens of croc heads sticking out of the water just watching us, and even a few sunbathing on the sand, and they just skedaddled back into the water when we came closer. We were actually crossing a lot of streams I assume had crocs in there as well... I guess they're not the big bad killing machines National Geographic made me think they were. Then again, Nile Crocodiles, or even worse, those Australian salt water crocs are in a different league...