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Couldn't avoid post this.

Looks like some of the rider animations, at least the idles, work well enough for the camel.   The camel mesh itself could use some serious updating.

in case its ok i don't see why not if render this into the camel uv i already did the high poly one still need to fix some texture placements

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25 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

A cross legged rider variation would be cool but that's up to you.  :)

I'll make some melee camel units for you after work. I had been holding off because the old animations weren't up to snuff.

Yep, i have planned something with the kushites references @Sundiata posted. at least the archer is mostly done but i may ask what could fit the promotion in the camels?

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1 hour ago, Alexandermb said:

Yep, i have planned something with the kushites references @Sundiata posted. at least the archer is mostly done but i may ask what could fit the promotion in the camels?

Advanced could add the notched leather shield. Elite could add turban and longer robes? Maybe quilted cotton armor.

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On 04/01/2018 at 11:51 PM, Alexandermb said:

I'm planing to make the reins so the rider doesn't look like he is holding the wing.

Example WIP:

A few more things to have the rein:

The rein is much too long; if it were pulled, it would have no effect. Also, the rider's arm probably should be resting on its lap (keeping it stretched out for hours is unnecessarily tiresome).

9 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

A cross legged rider variation would be cool but that's up to you.  :)

Cross-legged should actually be the default for the Arab (Bedouin, Nabatean, etc.) archer.

9 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I'll make some melee camel units for you after work. I had been holding off because the old animations weren't up to snuff.

A (Arab) camel spearman (without armour or shield) is something I'd really like to have.

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4 minutes ago, Nescio said:

The rein is much too long; if it were pulled, it would have no effect. Also, the rider's arm probably should be resting on its lap (keeping it stretched out for hours is unnecessarily tiresome).

Nescio is correct here. A shorter rein would be nice. The rein is a good idea though. It'll look great.

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1 minute ago, Nescio said:

The rein is much too long; if it were pulled, it would have no effect. Also, the rider's arm probably should be resting on its lap (keeping it stretched out for hours is unnecessarily tiresome).

Cross-legged should actually be the default for the Arab (Bedouin, Nabatean, etc.) archer.

A (Arab) camel spearman (without armour or shield) is something I'd really like to have.

Berebers are more... dangerous in this time frame. and old Saharan tribes.

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44 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

an Arabic Spear Camelry mercenary unit for the Persians and Seleucids.

Arab, not Arabic. “Arabs” were the only ones who fought from dromedary camel back in Antiquity, although neighbouring peoples also used camels as supply animals.

The word has shifted its meaning too. Before the 7th C A.D. Arab was the demonym for all nomadic and semi-nomadic desert peoples and tribes; those we now call Bedouins, Nabateans, etc. were called by others and called themselves Arab in their own time. And in the Quran (Koran) Mohammed frequently fulminates upon the detestable Arabs (meaning the Bedouins, who were not interested in converting to his monotheistic movement).

Nowadays Arab means someone who has Arabic as his mother tongue. Arabic is derived from the Arabian Peninsula, which derives from the Arabian Desert, which came from the Arab (peoples). To summarize, “Arab” is nowadays an ethnic adjective, “Arabian” a geographical adjective, and “Arabic” a linguistic adjective.

Edited by Nescio
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27 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Nowadays Arab means someone who has Arabic as his mother tongue. Arabic is derived from the Arabian Peninsula, which derives from the Arabian Desert, which came from the Arab (peoples). To summarize, “Arab” is nowadays an ethnic adjective, “Arabian” a geographical adjective, and “Arabic” a linguistic adjective.

Okay then.

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24 minutes ago, Nescio said:

Arab, not Arabic. “Arabs” were the only ones who fought from dromedary camel back in Antiquity, although neighbouring peoples also used camels as supply animals.

The word has shifted its meaning too. Before the 7th C A.D. Arab was the demonym for all nomadic and semi-nomadic desert peoples and tribes; those we now call Bedouins, Nabateans, etc. were called by others and called themselves Arab in their own time. And in the Quran (Koran) Mohammed frequently fulminates upon the detestable Arabs (meaning the Bedouins, who were not interested in converting to his monotheistic movement).

Nowadays Arab means someone who has Arabic as his mother tongue. Arabic is derived from the Arabian Peninsula, which derives from the Arabian Desert, which came from the Arab (peoples). To summarize, “Arab” is nowadays an ethnic adjective, “Arabian” a geographical adjective, and “Arabic” a linguistic adjective.

You mean Saraceni?

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5 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

You mean Saraceni?

Saracen is the Medieval term for what we nowadays call Arab.

Names which had different meanings in the past are unimportant to be aware of in daily usage, but do matter when talking about specific historical contexts. E.g. modern Calabria (the toe of Italy; called Bruttium in Roman times) is a completely different region from ancient Calabria (the heel of Italy; the modern Salento Peninsula in Apulia).

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1 minute ago, Nescio said:

Saracen is the Medieval term for what we nowadays call Arab.

Names which had different meanings in the past are unimportant to be aware of in daily usage, but do matter when talking about specific historical contexts. E.g. modern Calabria (the toe of Italy; called Bruttium in Roman times) is a completely different region from ancient Calabria (the heel of Italy; the modern Salento Peninsula in Apulia).

Quote

The term Saraceni may be derived from the Semitic triliteral root srq "to steal, rob, plunder", and perhaps more specifically from the noun sāriq (Arabic: سارق‎), pl. sariqīn (سارقين), which means "thief, marauder, plunderer".[7] Other possible Semitic roots are šrq "east" and šrkt "tribe, confederation".[8]

Ptolemy's 2nd century work, Geography, describes Sarakēnḗ (Ancient Greek: Σαρακηνή) as a region in the northern Sinai Peninsula.[2] Ptolemy also mentions a people called the Sarakēnoí (Ancient Greek: οἱ Σαρακηνοί) living in the northwestern Arabian Peninsula (near neighbor to the Sinai).[2] Eusebius in his Ecclesiastical history narrates an account wherein Pope Dionysius of Alexandria mentions Saracens in a letter while describing the persecution of Christians by the Roman emperor Decius: "Many were, in the Arabian mountain, enslaved by the barbarous 'sarkenoi'."[2] The Augustan History also refers to an attack by "Saraceni" on Pescennius Niger's army in Egypt in 193, but provides little information as to identifying them.[9]

Both Hippolytus of Rome and Uranius mention three distinct peoples in Arabia during the first half of the third century: the "Taeni", the "Saraceni" and the "Arabes".[2] The "Taeni", later identified with the Arab people called "Tayy", were located around Khaybar (an oasis north of Medina) and also in an area stretching up to the Euphrates. The "Saraceni" were placed north of them.[2] These Saracens, located in the northern Hejaz, were described as people with a certain military ability who were opponents of the Roman Empire and who were classified by the Romans as barbarians.[2]

The Saracens are described as forming the "equites" (heavy cavalry) from Phoenicia and Thamud.[10] In one document the defeated enemies of Diocletian's campaign in the Syrian Desert are described as Saracens. Other 4th century military reports make no mention of Arabs but refer to as 'Saracens' groups ranging as far east as Mesopotamia that were involved in battles on both the Sasanian and Roman sides.[10][11] The Saracens were named in the Roman administrative document Notitia Dignitatum—dating from the time of Theodosius I in the 4th century—as comprising distinctive units in the Roman army. They were distinguished in the document from Arabs

I know is medieval 12 century (Crusades to Holy land timeframe). only I was tasting  your knowledge is very good.

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1 hour ago, Nescio said:

Arab, not Arabic. “Arabs” were the only ones who fought from dromedary camel back in Antiquity, although neighbouring peoples also used camels as supply animals.

Although I agree with most of what you say, I'd be very careful with statements like the one above. Blemmye definitely used camels in war during Antiquity. Their (material) culture is very similar to that of the bedouin, so it's what you'd expect (they were neighbours). According to some sources camels were introduced to the Sahara as early as early as 500 BC, although most sources put this date much later (2nd century AD) and attribute it to the Romans. These common sources are almost definitely incorrect. There is a very rich corpus of Saharan rock art depicting camels being ridden by people carrying weapons (some dating back thousands of years), but as with all things African, this history has been very obscured.

Garamantes are actually more known for their horse-drawn chariots (up to 4 horses) which they used to "hunt" troglodytes. So I also think camels should be avoided for Carthagenians unless a clear reference can be found. I must emphasise that I'm not sure about camels not being used by Garamantes during 0AD's timeframe... 

Also, camels are usually ridden with loose reins, being steered with a stick, not the reins. So the long reins don't only look good, they're actually accurate...

 

Ancient African Camelry 

Spoiler

This Kushite graffiti from the walls of Musawwarat es Sufra depicts a camel ridden by an (armed?) man. Maybe not the most impressive reference but it's context include among other things a lot more camels, horsemen, archers, an axe-man, swordsmen, spearmen... You get the picture...

5a50bec455096_KingdomofKushKushitecamelgraffitoonthewallsofMusawwaratmeroiticperiod.thumb.jpg.850f93e212d0d265772169c462b6a489.jpg

 

Kushite camel on pyramid chapel relief, Meroë

5a50bfa4dcc75_KingdomofKushKushitecamelrelief.jpg.333bcddfa94eb66523b28de80b85173a.jpg

 

Meroitic bronze of a camel, with a saddle similar to the type that was also used for horses.

5a50bee12eb47_KingdomofKushKushitebronzecamelwithsaddlemeroemeroiticperiod.thumb.jpg.f3af5ecd858b91f709facc1938e92f23.jpg

 

Saharan rock art depicting ancient camelry from Chad, Niger and Libya (note the arm-daggers, spears and long reins)

chad-roc4-V2.thumb.jpg.04f9f3c0e2770c05b10eb7a711455850.jpg

160715160820-african-rock-art-chad---mounted-camel-super-169.thumb.jpg.d4f7c83a631b4e8e3867ac45118b5721.jpg

CHAENP0100035.jpg.d7b86f4b8953b00d3850cd3b81e8ad9e.jpg

Libyan-Rock-Art-Camels.jpg.683acbe7e526815101a23c5e7b9bfa91.jpg

 

 

Edited by Sundiata
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1 hour ago, Sundiata said:

Although I agree with most of what you say, I'd be very careful with statements like the one above.

You're right, I could have expressed it a bit more subtle. As usual, my knowledge is limited to the Near East and Mediterranean. Although I know a few things about ancient Africa (modern Tunisia) I know next to nothing about the ancient history of the continent we nowadays call Africa (ancient Libya and Aethiopia). Therefore thank you for correcting me (and please continue to do so; I like to learn new things, and I do hope Kushites and other significant civilizations will eventually be included in 0 A.D.'s main distribution).

The primary motivation for me posting was to distinguish between Arab (a term already used by the Assyrians) and Arabic (which did not yet exist during Antiquity). And the idea behind my controversial statement was that there is clear evidence desert peoples (who were typically called Arabs in their own time) fought from camel-back, whereas there is no evidence for other people who did have camels. E.g. the Parthian army at the battle of Carrhae reportedly consisted of about one thousand cataphracts, nine thousand light horse archers, and tens of thousands of supply camels, but no camelry units.

1 hour ago, Sundiata said:

According to some sources camels were introduced to the Sahara as early as early as 500 BC, although most sources put this date much later (2nd century AD) and attribute it to the Romans. These common sources are almost definitely incorrect.

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if dromedary camels existed in and around the Sahara thousands of years earlier; even if the first literary references are from Roman times, it doesn't mean they weren't there long before.

1 hour ago, Sundiata said:

Garamantes are actually more known for their horse-drawn chariots (up to 4 horses) which they used to "hunt" troglodytes. So I also think camels should be avoided for Carthagenians unless a clear reference can be found. I must emphasise that I'm not sure about camels not being used by Garamantes during 0AD's timeframe...

There is clear evidence the Carthaginians used both bigae (two-horse chariots which served on the flanks alongside cavalry) and quadrigae (four-horse chariots which were deployed individually in front of the main infantry formation, just like war elephants later). The bigae were gradually being phased out in favour of true cavalry, and the quadrigae were replaced by elephantry shortly after Carthage' conflicts with Pyrrhus. I'm unaware of Punic camelry (and ancient writers are interested in exotic things).

“Troglodytes” means “cave-dwellers” and various ancient authors apply that term to various peoples.

1 hour ago, Sundiata said:

Also, camels are usually ridden with loose reins, being steered with a stick, not the reins. So the long reins don't only look good, they're actually accurate...

Yes, I'm aware camels were and are guided by loose reins, sticks, both, or neither; besides shouting. I'm not objecting to loose reins, I was pointing out they were too loose; if they can't be reined in they serve no purpose; I'm asking them to be shortened somewhat (but not to be tight).

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Addendum: during the later Roman Empire the Romans did have “dromedarii” (camelry units); but they were an auxiliary corps, i.e. recruited from non-Roman peoples or local tribes (i.e. Arabs). The same applies to the camelry occassionally listed amongst the Persian etc. armies.

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I like the rein a lot. I'm not an expert so I believe Wow when it says it's too long. 

You realise though that if camels have reins chariots, horses and ponies should have some too :P

@wackyserious Do you have some free time ? If so could you make an improved version of the texture Alexandermb made for the saddle ? Just the top layer(s) on Photoshop would do. While the current one fits it's purpose it's not looking that good. 

Bonus : Bump map for it.

Can someone enlighten me as to what cross legged is ?

Btw the next camel should have transparent planes for hair.

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1 hour ago, stanislas69 said:

I like the rein a lot. I'm not an expert so I believe Wow when it says it's too long.

Yes, it looks nice. Ideally there should be three variants: no reins, a single rein (which can be very long), and a loop rein (as shown; loose but short enough to be reined in).

1 hour ago, stanislas69 said:

You realise though that if camels have reins chariots, horses and ponies should have some too :P

Camels: occassionally. Chariots: certainly. Horse: typically yes, but it depends; Greek cavalry often lacked shields (or carried them on their back) because they needed one hand to hold the reins, whereas Dahae horse archers were skilled enough to guide their mount with their legs and needed both hands to shoot arrows.

1 hour ago, stanislas69 said:

Can someone enlighten me as to what cross legged is ?

Sitting with your legs crossed is that your left feet is at the right, and vice versa. A camel is not a horse; you can sit on it in a number of ways. E.g.:

https://www.lindydavis.co.nz/?lightbox=dataItem-ivzutjhc

or:

niger-sahara-tenere-desert-tuareg-camel-

Edited by Nescio
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