Ideas for unique technologies

[borg-]

Hey guys,

We on the balance team are working on some gameplay improvements for the next alpha (27).
Our main objective is to bring some elements to differentiate civilizations from each other. We want to provide some incentive for players to step out of their comfort zone and usual strategies. Work is progressing and we appreciate if you can help us.
We would like to hear your ideas about unique technologies.

Be creative here and remember that the characteristics of 0 A.D. must be maintained, therefore it is necessary to respect the need for a correct historical context.

Remembering that technology can also be for more than one civilization, as happens with the "Hoplite Tradition", for example

Don't worry at first about the issue of balance, we can balance things, just focus on the idea at first.

I look forward to reading your ideas.

Thank you everyone and stay well 

Edited September 25, 2023 by borg-

[Carltonus]

Please, please, please: have a look on the progress for the debated "Iphicratean Reforms" first!

Currently a deadlock.

[Gurken Khan]

1 hour ago, borg- said:

we can balance things

Good to hear!

Maybe I could frame it as a balance issue and so it would come to your consideration anyway, but I just wanted to use the opportunity to say again that I'm not happy with the civ bonuses that are sometimes utterly useless for allies; for example ele bonuses when you don't have an ele civ.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

On the reforms upgrade, I think the upgrade should just be about accessing them from docks and boats, with the marines already available from the gym in p2. If this is OP, the cost of the gym could be adjusted.

6 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

not happy with the civ bonuses that are sometimes utterly useless for allies; for example ele bonuses when you don't have an ele civ.

so you mean they should be more generally applicable?

[Gurken Khan]

8 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

so you mean they should be more generally applicable?

Yes. For example every civ profits from the Roman bonus but only ~1/3 from the kush.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

9 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

Yes. For example every civ profits from the Roman bonus but only ~1/3 from the kush.

"Iron Smelting": Large mounds of iron slag were found at Kushite settlement sites, indicating an advance iron working industry. Allies +10% metal gathering rate.

Edited September 25, 2023 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

All civs:

"Siege Rations": A late-game City Phase boost to unit health. All units +10% health. Cost: 2000 food. Building: Farmstead.

Edited September 25, 2023 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Pemulis]

A technology for unique formations?

I've always wandered what's the point of unique formations that some civs offer.
In reality, they consisted in a material advantage for melee troops during fights. In game, they are more or less completely useless.

Would be viable to offer some buffs with their utilization (thought the research of a related technology)? E.g., roman testudo was designed to offer more cover against ranged troops, so it could be reflected easily in game with a buff on ranged defense.
I find would be very cool if the historical and tactical revolution such formations brought to the field was represented in game.

[borg-]

@FreagarachIs there a possibility of a general aura for formations?

[real_tabasco_sauce]

The formations aura is possible and it is interesting, but there are a lot of details and nuances:

Formations break: Should formation bonuses apply when units are no longer constrained to the formation? Sure the testudo should improve pierce armor for the formation, but why should it when the units take their own path to go fight?

If you do give the formations auras as is, you will likely see players clicking a formation exclusively for the stat benefit and immediately surrendering the formation to unitAI. To account for this, I think the best strategy is to let the bonuses be tradeoffs:

Ex. testudo: Units +5 pierce armor but -30% speed.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I think the easiest thing to do would be to make formations unlockable with a special tech. For example, if you had a Hellenistic Reforms tech for the Spartans, it could simultaneously unlock Spartan pike units and unlock the Syntagma formation. 

 

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Formations break: Should formation bonuses apply when units are no longer constrained to the formation? Sure the testudo should improve pierce armor for the formation, but why should it when the units take their own path to go fight?

This is the strongest problem with "formation bonuses" because the game still doesn't have hard formations (yet?). As you indicate, once the formation stops moving the soldiers go off and do their own thing. They are technically still in the same formation, but they path apart. 

The best way to simulate a formation bonus is to look at what Delenda Est does for Hoplites and Pikemen. It gives a small aura to these units which effects units around them:

{
	"type": "range",
	"radius": 2.5,
	"affects": ["Hoplite"],
	"affectedPlayers": ["Player", "Ally"],
	"modifications": [
		{"value": "Resistance/Entity/Damage/Hack", "add": 2},
		{"value": "Resistance/Entity/Damage/Pierce", "add": 2},
		{"value": "Resistance/Entity/Damage/Crush", "add": 2}
	],
	"auraName": "Shield Wall",
	"auraDescription": "Hoplite-style infantry give other Hoplite-style infantry +2 hack, +2 pierce, and +2 crush resistance within range of each other. This does not stack or multiply.",
	"overlayIcon": "art/textures/ui/session/auras/standground.png",
	"stackable": false
}

{
	"type": "range",
	"radius": 3,
	"affects": ["Infantry Pike"],
	"affectedPlayers": ["Player", "Ally"],
	"modifications": [
		{"value": "Attack/Melee/Damage/Hack", "multiply": 1.05},
		{"value": "Resistance/Entity/Damage/Hack", "add": 1},
		{"value": "Resistance/Entity/Damage/Pierce", "add": 1},
		{"value": "Resistance/Entity/Damage/Crush", "add": 1}
	],
	"auraName": "Massed Pikes",
	"auraDescription": "Player and allied Pike Infantry boost each others' attack by +5% within 3 meters. This effect 'stacks', so that the more Pike Infantry fighting together en mass, the more effective this becomes (+10%, +15%, +20% etc.). Resistance also increased +1 for all types.",
	"overlayIcon": "art/textures/ui/session/auras/attack_bonus.png",
	"stackable": true
}

 

Because the range of these auras is so small, it usually requires the Phalanx or Syntagma formations respectively in order for the auras to apply. 

[alre]

4 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

All civs:

"Siege Rations": A late-game City Phase boost to unit health. All units +10% health. Cost: 2000 food. Building: Farmstead.

nah, late game food is pretty easy to float. will to fight is a good tech because of the 1500 cost in metal and stone. you got to go take that stone.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

10 minutes ago, alre said:

nah, late game food is pretty easy to float. will to fight is a good tech because of the 1500 cost in metal and stone. you got to go take that stone.

2000 food, 1000 metal then.

6 hours ago, borg- said:

Don't worry at first about the issue of balance, we can balance things, just focus on the idea at first.

 

@alre^

[real_tabasco_sauce]

2 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Because the range of these auras is so small, it usually requires the Phalanx or Syntagma formations respectively in order for the auras to apply. 

Not an ideal solution.

Could a check be added that if (unit is moving and does not have orders to move), it does not receive the bonus of the formation it is in? I think this encapsulates all the possible cases where a unit of a formation can move and still count as 'in formation'.

Although this might include pushing, pushing occurs very briefly and very rarely when in formation.

While this would have a performance cost, I would expect it to be less than a bunch of overlapping and stacking auras, each with their own range.

[Vrayer]

Is there something significant about the size of spears? I understand that during the time of the Macedonians, they possessed remarkably long spears, and subsequently, other Hellenic civilizations adopted this practice. Perhaps we could incorporate this into the game; for example, the Macedonians could start with spear men with a larger hitbox, and then other civilizations could potentially copy this feature? what if this tec is only available if a macedonian is in the game? as a civ bonus tec but also for opponent?

Edited September 26, 2023 by Vrayer

[alre]

10 minutes ago, Vrayer said:

Is there something significant about the size of spears? I understand that during the time of the Macedonians, they possessed remarkably long spears, and subsequently, other Hellenic civilizations adopted this practice. Perhaps we could incorporate this into the game; for example, the Macedonians could start with spear men with a larger hitbox, and then other civilizations could potentially copy this feature? what if this tec is only available if a macedonian is in the game? as a civ bonus tec but also for opponent?

are you telling us you never noticed that mace have pikemen instead of spearmen, with different stats and longer attack range?

[Vrayer]

16 minutes ago, alre said:

are you telling us you never noticed that mace have pikemen instead of spearmen, with different stats and longer attack range?

Yes!

Edited September 26, 2023 by Vrayer

[Gurken Khan]

46 minutes ago, alre said:

pikemen

Would elongation of pikes be a good tech idea?

[alre]

1 hour ago, Gurken Khan said:

Would elongation of pikes be a good tech idea?

I believe simply changing the range won't have a big impact on the game, maybe just in pike vs pike scenarios... one should test it.

I'd say let's have melee rebalance first. btw I don't get why we are all stuck waiting for a27, instead of pushing forward the community mod.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

2 hours ago, Gurken Khan said:

Would elongation of pikes be a good tech idea?

I have two technologies for pikes within 'unit specific upgrades'

one is longer pikes and the other is buttspike for increased cavalry counter.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 hour ago, alre said:

btw I don't get why we are all stuck waiting for a27, instead of pushing forward the community mod.

I'd like to test this as would a number of people. I think @wraitii and @Stan` are either on vacation or have some more pressing matters. They have been the ones to release new community mod versions in the past.

@s0600204 do you think you could release a version 5 of the community mod? This would help us test a few a27 patches as well as the proposed melee rebalance.

[ShadowOfHassen]

I think that Athens should have some unique upgrades that are non-military to show that they did a lot for philosophy/ literature. Maybe, and this is less of an upgrade, allow the theater be able to be built in the second age and allow several choosable  play themed upgrades that change your civ.

I.E. you can choose either the clouds by Aristophanes to have +10% research cost but +10% resource gathering speed, or {INSERT OTHER PLAY} that has the opposite effect/

No. this would not be for the other theaters. I don't think the other civs should have the theater. (They should have other cool buildings)

Quote

@s0600204 do you think you could release a version 5 of the community mod? This would help us test a few a27 patches as well as the proposed melee rebalance.

 if there's a new community mod, can I put my resource upgrade change idea? If people like the theater idea, I might be able to set up a rough version for the community mod as well.

[chrstgtr]

4 hours ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

 if there's a new community mod, can I put my resource upgrade change idea? If people like the theater idea, I might be able to set up a rough version for the community mod as well.

The community mod has a process to it. Someone notes a problem. Someone proposes a solution. It gets debated. It gets possibly modified. It gets voted on. If it receives enough votes, it goes in. Your proposed change hasn't gone through that process. I haven't looked at the thread for a long time, but I'm pretty sure there wasn't even a consensus that there was problem. I also believe some version of your proposal was previously debated and rejected (https://code.wildfiregames.com/D3704) (if I recall correctly, I actually wanted something somewhat similar to a progressive system like you proposed but I was unable to convince others). Simply put, your proposal hasn't undergone the review that other items that are adopted into the game and through the community mod have to go through. Additionally, your proposal's effect would have an extremely expansive effect, which suggests a greater need for caution and the review described above.

 

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[Gurken Khan]

@chrstgtr I understand the community mod process, just wanted to say that I kinda like the p2 theater idea; don't know if it would be more expansive than a colony.

[chrstgtr]

3 hours ago, Gurken Khan said:

@chrstgtr I understand the community mod process, just wanted to say that I kinda like the p2 theater idea; don't know if it would be more expansive than a colony.

I was more addressing the eco change proposal.

But thanks for the feedback. Always good to have input. 

--------------

With respect to the actual forum thread topic, I would like to encourage others to try to come up with ideas that aren't just techs. Techs that modify an already existing template are a little gimmicky and lazy. Most techs also put us in a "race to push all the buttons."

I would also say that the most interesting civ differentiators aren't techs. They are the inherent civ bonuses/features like Iber's walls, Iber's skirm discount, Athens' phrasing bonus, Mace's automatic tech research times, etc. These are differentiators that create really unique strategies and build orders, and are not just a "race to push all the tech buttons" 

Edited September 27, 2023 by chrstgtr