New Civ for Alpha 28+?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Would it be cool to add another civ to the game after this alpha? It's too late for A27, but A28 or A29 is definitely doable. New civs are a nice way to add content and also keep the game fresh. There are many excellent options to choose from. It's also perfectly okay to choose 'No.' Either way, it'd be good to state reasons.  

Edited January 1, 2023 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[chrstgtr]

31 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Would it be cool to add another civ to the game after this alpha? It's too late for A27, but A28 or A29 is definitely doable. New civs are a nice way to add content and also keep the game fresh. There are many excellent options to choose from. It's also perfectly okay to choose 'No.' Either way, it'd be good to state reasons.  

I would like some totally fresh content. We should be able to round Han out in the next alpha or two. Are any of the new options already built out? (Haven’t looked at DE in forever) 

Your thought on the options?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

39 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

I would like some totally fresh content. We should be able to round Han out in the next alpha or two. Are any of the new options already built out? (Haven’t looked at DE in forever) 

Your thought on the options?

Options to crib from DE and which are already pretty advanced:

Scythians & Xiongnu would add completely new styles of play. In DE, Scyth and Xion cavalry can construct buildings for example. EA's versions don't have to be as radical as DE's, but a focus on innovative playstyles would be important. They are "the nomads" after all.

Suebians/Germans would have cheap, weak buildings like the Celts, but also have Ox Cart dropsites. Where the Celts/Brits/Gauls have plenty of armor, the Germans of Part 1 have almost no armor and would rely on speed and attack. Heavily wood-focused. 

Those above already have custom building models. Those below crib models from civs already in the game:

Syracusans are pretty advanced in DE and are what I'm working on currently. Although at first blush they'd seem like they'd be just like any other Greek civ, I think we could do some cool stuff with them: a "Hoplite" civ with "Successor" things such as Quinqueremes, Libraries, Gastraphetes, and come up with some cool special techs for them ("Archimedes' Screw", "Archimedes Claw", "Antikythera Mechanism", "Pythagorean Theorem", etc.). Not to mention nice hero and mercenary options. I wouldn't go too weird with Solar Towers or anything apocryphal.

Thebans are 100% ready to go, but might be a bit bland since they are just a typical "Greek city-state Hoplite" civ. I kind of look at them like the "n00b civ" of DE: uncomplicated, but still strong.

Epirotes are kind of like a variation of the Macedonians, but with a larger roster of mercenaries and access to War Elephants.

 

The rest of DE's civs are out of time frame for EA's current focus or too far away: Imperial Romans, Gothic Germans, Yamatai Japanese, and Zapotecs.

 

 

Options from other mods:

Lusitanians: Getting there, but still need a lot of work to get them up to EA's art standards. 

Thracians: Not even close to being close to done. I think people know and like the Thracian aesthetic though. Focused on skirmishing.

Garamantes: Would be nice to add another African civ. Still need work.

Mayas: Out of scope. The mod is advanced and already has a lot of nice things, but needs work for EA-standard.

Edited January 1, 2023 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[chrstgtr]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Options to crib from DE and which are already pretty advanced:

Scythians & Xiongnu would add completely new styles of play. In DE, Scyth and Xion cavalry can construct buildings for example. EA's versions don't have to be as radical as DE's, but a focus on innovative playstyles would be important. They are "the nomads" after all.

Suebians/Germans would have cheap, weak buildings like the Celts, but also have Ox Cart dropsites. Where the Celts/Brits/Gauls have plenty of armor, the Germans of Part 1 have almost no armor and would rely on speed and attack. Heavily wood-focused. 

Those above already have custom building models. Those below crib models from civs already in the game:

Syracusans are pretty advanced in DE and are what I'm working on currently. Although at first blush they'd seem like they'd be just like any other Greek civ, I think we could do some cool stuff with them: a "Hoplite" civ with "Successor" things such as Quinqueremes, Libraries, Gastraphetes, and come up with some cool special techs for them ("Archimedes' Screw", "Archimedes Claw", "Antikythera Mechanism", "Pythagorean Theorem", etc.). Not to mention nice hero and mercenary options. I wouldn't go too weird with Solar Towers or anything apocryphal.

Thebans are 100% ready to go, but might be a bit bland since they are just a typical "Greek city-state Hoplite" civ. I kind of look at them like the "n00b civ" of DE: uncomplicated, but still strong.

Epirotes are kind of like a variation of the Macedonians, but with a larger roster of mercenaries and access to War Elephants.

 

The rest of DE's civs are out of time frame for EA's current focus or too far away: Imperial Romans, Gothic Germans, Yamatai Japanese, and Zapotecs.

 

 

Options from other mods:

Lusitanians: Getting there, but still need a lot of work to get them up to EA's art standards. 

Thracians: Not even close to being close to done. I think people know and like the Thracian aesthetic though. Focused on skirmishing.

Garamantes: Would be nice to add another African civ. Still need work.

Mayas: Out of scope. The mod is advanced and already has a lot of nice things, but needs work for EA-standard.

For me, the first Scythians & Xiongnu and  Suebians/Germans sound interesting. I’m a little tired of all the greek civs (not to mention the Alex the Great successors). 

Others may disagree.  

EDIT: I know it wasn’t mentioned, but I think it would be cool to get some post 1AD civs in the game. The game is currently lacking a lot (completely?) in that area despite being intended as a game that captures 500 BC to 500 AD. Roman Empire seems like an obvious candidate. Barbarian civs like the Vandals also seem obvious. A little outside that range, but I think some early Islamic conquests would be cool too. Showing content like the Islamic empire (or early mesoamerican) stuff might also help expand the player the base. 

Edited January 1, 2023 by chrstgtr

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, chrstgtr said:

For me, the first Scythians & Xiongnu and  Suebians/Germans sound interesting. I’m a little tired of all the greek civs (not to mention the Alex the Great successors). 

 

Yeah, even if a civ like Syracuse gets added eventually, it'd be nice to get some more "Barbarian" civs into the game first.

 

1 hour ago, chrstgtr said:

EDIT: I know it wasn’t mentioned, but I think it would be cool to get some post 1AD civs in the game. The game is currently lacking a lot (completely?) in that area despite being intended as a game that captures 500 BC to 500 AD. Roman Empire seems like an obvious candidate. Barbarian civs like the Vandals also seem obvious.

I would love to expand EA to being 500 BC to 500 AD. Add:

Imperial Romans

• Already quite advanced in DE.

Goths

Dacians

Sasanian Persians

Huns

Palmyrenes

Yamatai Japanese

 

Quote

A little outside that range, but I think some early Islamic conquests would be cool too. Showing content like the Islamic empire (or early mesoamerican) stuff might also help expand the player the base. 

And then this would be the "Sequel"^. The Millennium AD mod being the basis for "Part 2."

[Genava55]

With the addition of the Han, the Xiongnu and the Scythians are a must have. 

Edited January 1, 2023 by Genava55

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Why are the mayans considered out of scope?

[real_tabasco_sauce]

On 31/12/2022 at 8:19 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

EA's versions don't have to be as radical as DE's, but a focus on innovative playstyles would be important. They are "the nomads" after all.

I wonder if some special, more flexible territory requirements can be used for these as well. Not sure if territory should be a universal constant or not.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

4 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I wonder if some special, more flexible territory requirements can be used for these as well. Not sure if territory should be a universal constant or not.

In DE, the nomads aren't bound by territory restrictions at all (their CC casts a territory effect only to help out the AI; it can be removed if the AI is extended to deal with nomad civs). The only structure that can't be built in enemy territory is the Fortress. 

Furthermore, their houses, storehouses, and ox carts can change into each other at-will. So if you want to move all of your houses elsewhere, you change them to ox carts and you can move them anywhere and change back to houses.

11 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Why are the mayans considered out of scope?

Along with Zapotecs they're in the wrong hemisphere. Just figured they'd be less likely choices. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

3 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

wrong hemisphere

as someone living in the western hemisphere, this is insulting.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

4 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

In DE, the nomads aren't bound by territory restrictions at all (their CC casts a territory effect only to help out the AI; it can be removed if the AI is extended to deal with nomad civs). The only structure that can't be built in enemy territory is the Fortress. 

Furthermore, their houses, storehouses, and ox carts can change into each other at-will. So if you want to move all of your houses elsewhere, you change them to ox carts and you can move them anywhere and change back to houses.

Honestly, I think this or something simplified could be great. There would certainly be need for balancing adjustments and stuff. I think territory might still be useful for capturing, but it could be greatly reduced compared to other civs. Not sure if the AI would handle a smaller territory any better than none tho.

[chrstgtr]

35 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Why are the mayans considered out of scope?

it’s also somewhat date range 

As I’ve said before, though, I don’t care much for that restriction. But it would be way after anything we currently have

Edited January 3, 2023 by chrstgtr

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

37 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I wonder if some special, more flexible territory requirements can be used for these as well. Not sure if territory should be a universal constant or not.

Keep in mind if we ever have some kind of moving buildings for nomadic civs, then we don't have to do it as badly as AoE4 did. I don't know if you ever saw clips of Mongol-douche, but it was extremely cheesy.

Suebians sound cool, and I think including Mayans at some point should be an obvious yes. 

[Philip the Swaggerless]

I personally like the time restriction to keep the feel of the time.  It's already strange enough that if you play Romans vs Gaul or Britons you do not get to pick Julius Caesar.

If at the start of the game you chose between 2 or 3 eras, and then could only choose civs of that era, that would be cool.  However, I'm sure that would be a lot of work, especially as alpha updates go on.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

7 hours ago, Philip the Swaggerless said:

I personally like the time restriction to keep the feel of the time.  It's already strange enough that if you play Romans vs Gaul or Britons you do not get to pick Julius Caesar.

Thing is, the reason you can't train Julius Caesar is precisely because of the time restriction. JC was born 100 years after the final Punic War and the Romans in the game are depicted in the Punic Wars era.

 

7 hours ago, Philip the Swaggerless said:

If at the start of the game you chose between 2 or 3 eras, and then could only choose civs of that era, that would be cool.  However, I'm sure that would be a lot of work, especially as alpha updates go on.

That would be my ultimate goal, yes. "0 A.D." is the game/engine, while "Empires Ascendant" is an era. It would just happen naturally if we continue to add civs and the only work needed with be to write the UI for selecting eras. 

[chrstgtr]

3 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Thing is, the reason you can't train Julius Caesar is precisely because of the time restriction. JC was born 100 years after the final Punic War and the Romans in the game are depicted in the Punic Wars era.

But why? Caesar’s contemporaries exist. There is Vercin. There is Cleopatra. Other civs include a wider date range—Ptol includes their first ruler and their last ruler, which begins earlier and ends later than Rome’s Punic Wars depiction. Why restrict Rome only to the Punic Wars period?

To me, 0AD civs should depict the greatest period of those civilizations. For a civ like Rome, that extends up through Caesar. Without Caesar, without  Augustus, without Marcus Aurelius Rome just feels incomplete. Yeah, maybe some of that should be built out in a separate Roman Empire civ, but even if that happens, where does Caesar exist?

Would Rome’s depiction really need to be that different if it included Caesar?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Just now, chrstgtr said:

But why? Caesar’s contemporaries exist. There is Vercin. There is Cleopatra. Other civs include a wider date range—Ptol includes their first ruler and their last ruler, which begins earlier and ends later than Rome’s Punic Wars depiction. Why restrict Rome only to the Punic Wars period?

I agree, honestly.  It would be nice to be able to depict the civs at different eras. The Punic Wars were a high point (and low point) for Rome, full of drama that's not often depicted, which is why that particular period was chosen. But let's say at the start of a match you choose a hero, as in Delenda Est, we could swap out units and technologies and even buildings based on that choice. Choose Julius Caesar or Pompey and now your unit roster is of the "Marian Reforms" legion instead of the Polybian legion you'd get if you chose Marcellus or Scipio. 

 

6 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

Would Rome’s depiction really need to be that different if it included Caesar?

The buildings wouldn't need to look different, but the unit roster would. It's possible, DE does it (as mentioned). 

 

Back to new civs now though.

[chrstgtr]

19 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I agree, honestly.  It would be nice to be able to depict the civs at different eras. The Punic Wars were a high point (and low point) for Rome, full of drama that's not often depicted, which is why that particular period was chosen. But let's say at the start of a match you choose a hero, as in Delenda Est, we could swap out units and technologies and even buildings based on that choice. Choose Julius Caesar or Pompey and now your unit roster is of the "Marian Reforms" legion instead of the Polybian legion you'd get if you chose Marcellus or Scipio. 

 

The buildings wouldn't need to look different, but the unit roster would. It's possible, DE does it (as mentioned). 
 

 

Yeah, my larger point is that beyond a rough inspiration, the game does a lot of historical cherry picking and inconsistently introduces arbitrary restrictions.

19 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Back to new civs now though.

With the above said, Mayans??? Or, for me, anyone but another Hellenistic civ

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

33 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

With the above said, Mayans???

I agree with the poll.  But if the Council of 0 A.D. Enthusiasts, plus @Stan` @Freagarach @wraitii et al. wanted to expand the scope a bit to add the Pre-Classical Maya, then I'd be all for it. @Lopess and @Duileoga are making a good mod for them. 

 

Quote

anyone but another Hellenistic civ

I agree. I just added the Syracusans to the poll because they are quite advanced in DE and are kinda cool/a bit different. Nomads, Germans, etc. before any new Greekish civs for sure. Gotta expand that cultural base of the game for that sweet sweet variety.

[chrstgtr]

5 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I agree with the poll.  But if the Council of 0 A.D. Enthusiasts, plus @Stan` @Freagarach @wraitii et al. wanted to expand the scope a bit to add the Pre-Classical Maya, then I'd be all for it. @Lopess and @Duileoga are making a good mod for them. 

 

I agree. I just added the Syracusans to the poll because they are quite advanced in DE and are kinda cool/a bit different. Nomads, Germans, etc. before any new Greekish civs for sure. Gotta expand that cultural base of the game for that sweet sweet variety.

Hear, hear!

Edited January 4, 2023 by chrstgtr

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

There seems to be a very strong trend in the poll results.

[hyperion]

Not yet another Greek civ is something I strongly agree with. Xiongnu, Maya, Zapotec, Yayoi are all fine by me.

As for assets, it's perfectly fine if there is only one variant, on the other hand I dislike shared assets between civs. So those listed as crib models from civs already in the game are a no go for me.

[Sturm]

Is it possible to make a map of the civilizations already inserted in the game? I know that the game's time frame doesn't help, but... South America seems to me to be totally unrepresented. Is there any civilization on this sub-continent (South America) with enough data to create a civilization in a game with a time frame like 0 ad?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Sturm said:

Is it possible to make a map of the civilizations already inserted in the game? I know that the game's time frame doesn't help, but... South America seems to me to be totally unrepresented. Is there any civilization on this sub-continent (South America) with enough data to create a civilization in a game with a time frame like 0 ad?

Archaeologists are making discoveries every year, but unfortunately we have scant information on Amazonian civilizations beyond LiDAR imagery. 

[Genava55]

5 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Archaeologists are making discoveries every year, but unfortunately we have scant information on Amazonian civilizations beyond LiDAR imagery. 

It seems dated to between 500 and 1400 AD

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llanos_de_Moxos_(archaeology)

https://aldianews.com/en/culture/heritage-and-history/hidden-jungle

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-04780-4

7 hours ago, Sturm said:

Is it possible to make a map of the civilizations already inserted in the game? I know that the game's time frame doesn't help, but... South America seems to me to be totally unrepresented. Is there any civilization on this sub-continent (South America) with enough data to create a civilization in a game with a time frame like 0 ad?

https://arsartisticadventureofmankind.wordpress.com/tag/@#$%arani-culture/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/@#$%arani_culture

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazca_culture

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lima_culture

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chavín_culture

Chavin is probably the best choice.

Edited January 5, 2023 by Genava55