Alpha26 feedback and suggested changes

[LetswaveaBook]

2 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I'd like to see an alpha where melee infantry are op for once.

Pikemen are clown units. They lose 1v1 against jav cav, while having 3x multiplier. They are only good for absorbing damage. Their design as clown units lies in their awkward stats.

 

Spearmen and swordsmen are half decent, as they deal to little damage and need to approach their target to do damage.

On 16/10/2022 at 7:35 PM, hamdich said:

, spear-cav can kill jav-cav but in bigger numbers ( 10 or more  ) with a bit of micro spear-cav will lose

As army size increases, naturally melee units face more difficulties. In low numbers, the balance is fine. I would suggest to give melee units stronger offensive forge upgrades so they can keep competing with ranged units as the game progresses.

 

In my view, melee units should dominate major battles and ranged units should be for harassment and minor support. Currently the high damage output of ranged units dominates battles.

[hamdich]

23 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

Pikemen are clown units. They lose 1v1 against jav cav, while having 3x multiplier. They are only good for absorbing damage. Their design as clown units lies in their awkward stats.

 i don't think pike lose 1v1 against jav cav , its just the mobility ( hit and retreat ) that gives cav the advantage.

 Also thats how to differenciate between spear and pike , historically was accurate too that  pike are damage absorbing units with less damage than spears and swords .

 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

see my two proposed "unit-specific" upgrades for pikemen:

https://gitlab.com/real_tabasco_sauce/0-a-d-community-mod-unit-specific-upgrades/-/blob/unit_upgrades/community-mod/simulation/data/technologies/pike1.json

https://gitlab.com/real_tabasco_sauce/0-a-d-community-mod-unit-specific-upgrades/-/blob/unit_upgrades/community-mod/simulation/data/technologies/pike2.json

I tested these and they had a noticeable impact on the usefulness of pikemen. In addition to these upgrades, I think an increase in pierce damage, and maybe a decrease in hack armor to equal their pierce armor would be ideal.

[Lion.Kanzen]

in AoE Iv i was watching a spanish video and anti cavalry melee type units can stun a cavalry unit. what it means is that cavalry even if they have more mobility, they can be trapped by a spear.

Spoiler

 

the video says it's a skill to increase the riskiness of the hit and run.

[Fabius]

6 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I'd like to see an alpha where melee infantry are op for once. 

Totally agree there

[Fabius]

The thing with Gallic fanatics is they are fast, faster than even skirmishers, the importance of this cannot be stated enough in a ranged dominated meta. As was pointed out melee infantry is crippled by moving to get into close proximity of an opponent to do damage while under fire. all melee infantry are universally slower than ranged infantry and they get snared by opposing melee infantry and other obstacles. Which ultimately makes them unappealing as anything other than meat shields. Not to mention the heavy costs involved with getting decent melee infantry in the form of champions that can actually do damage.

Fanatics however have the speed to get into melee and also to retreat if needed. They are cheap in terms of not costing metal and are pretty durable to boot. Overall a fun unit and a breath of fresh air. I wish other civs had interesting units that filled the cheap heavy infantry slot, especially for Rome.

[Lion.Kanzen]

9 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

in AoE Iv i was watching a spanish video and anti cavalry melee type units can stun a cavalry unit. what it means is that cavalry even if they have more mobility, they can be trapped by a spear.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

the video says it's a skill to increase the riskiness of the hit and run.

I like the skill is very discreet. could fit here.

 

[Emperior]

Insane hans food opness. Having 20 farms while having 2k food only XD user has taken all women from farms to get some wood. just saying... it was xpert ( @hamdich ) playing

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Emperior

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

7 minutes ago, Emperior said:

Insane hans food opness. Having 20 farms while having 2k food only XD user has taken all women from farms to get some wood. just saying... it was xpert ( @hamdich ) playing

 

What is the source of this bonus? On paper there should be nothing to give Han a farming bonus

[Emperior]

3 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

What is the source of this bonus? On paper there should be nothing to give Han a farming bonus

There is no bonus, simply he took women to gather wood on the right hand side. There was no ministers. He struggle with food and wood because he was making cavs. The first post saying that 10 farms are so super op, now he is using 20 while not managing to have good amount of food.

 

also, there was ptol in game on his team too. so extra food income would come from ptolo civ.

 

Edited October 23, 2022 by Emperior

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

Just now, Emperior said:

There is no bonus, simply he took women to gather wood on the right hand side. There was no ministers. He struggle with food and wood because he was making cavs. The first post saying that 10 farms are so super op, now he is using 20 while not managing to have good amount of food.

Ok, but is han OP for this? I am just confused what is the problem or needed change?

[Emperior]

4 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Ok, but is han OP for this? I am just confused what is the problem or needed change?

Read first post. Comparison from nowhere of how hans food income is much better than any other civ. Hans are struggling with eco, slower build. He has also claimed that hans are using less women for gathering food - not true, they always have extra farms needed, especially when you suicide.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Emperior
mistype

[Feldfeld]

42 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

What is the source of this bonus? On paper there should be nothing to give Han a farming bonus

It could be due to diminishing returns, I didn't bother checking that yet.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Feldfeld

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

1 minute ago, Feldfeld said:

It could be due to diminishing returns, I didn't bother checking that yet.

That would mean that 1 woman per farm has a higher gather rate per woman than 5 women per farm, right?

I have heard of this before, but I had assumed it was not in the game.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

14 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

That would mean that 1 woman per farm has a higher gather rate per woman than 5 women per farm, right?

I have heard of this before, but I had assumed it was not in the game.

it is, but it's a small difference IIRC. In the screenshot above, Xpert would get a marginally higher rate if there was one woman on each farm.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

it is, but it's a small difference IIRC. In the screenshot above, Xpert would get a marginally higher rate if there was one woman on each farm.

A higher rate per capita, a little sweetener since in this scenario you've spent the wood to build 21 farms for 21 women instead of 7 farms for 21 women.  

But per square meter of space it's better to max out your farms, whether it's 3 on a rice field or 5 on a wheat field. Often space can be an issue. So, there are multiple considerations.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

yes, especially if you are worried about raids. I certainly don't think this is what makes Han considered strong by some.

Edited October 23, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[hamdich]

23 hours ago, Emperior said:

Insane hans food opness. Having 20 farms while having 2k food only XD user has taken all women from farms to get some wood. just saying... it was xpert ( @hamdich ) playing

 

22 hours ago, Emperior said:

Read first post. Comparison from nowhere of how hans food income is much better than any other civ. Hans are struggling with eco, slower build. He has also claimed that hans are using less women for gathering food - not true, they always have extra farms needed, especially when you suicide.

Why are you so fixated on me? why you try so hard to just to prove i am wrong ? 

as if you didn't spec the whole game from start , first of all those are 18 farms  which means 54 women while with other civs i make 12 farms atleast means 60 women for cav training approach .

secondly even though i was training cav and units and don't have the last farming and woodcuting upgrades i was floating food juwt with 54 women and no pahse 3 yet , and since i needed to help my ally i sent ll my units to fight and sent women to wood since i m floating food  whixh are thing you cant understand ofc)

you intentionally took screenshot to mention that i made alot of farms (which is not true normally should be 60+ women ) but ofcouse you proved me right that even with less famrs and women gathering food with hans i was training cav and floating food and that due to smaller farms (3 women per farm) that increase infficiency but 10+

[hamdich]

23 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

What is the source of this bonus? On paper there should be nothing to give Han a farming bonus

i have explained it in the feedback , its the smaller farms 3  per each that increases the gathering efficiency by almost 10% 

we used to do that trick with bigger farms we put 3 per fram instead of 5 and that proved to be better , but alsothat will mean bigger numbers of farms more used space and easier raid and more wood spent for famrs. 

While Hans get that feature by standard because of smaller farms unlike other civs.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

44 minutes ago, hamdich said:

i have explained it in the feedback , its the smaller farms 3  per each that increases the gathering efficiency by almost 10% 

we used to do that trick with bigger farms we put 3 per fram instead of 5 and that proved to be better , but alsothat will mean bigger numbers of farms more used space and easier raid and more wood spent for famrs. 

While Hans get that feature by standard because of smaller farms unlike other civs.

Wow I have never noticed people doing this before. Maybe I should try it. Is it op enough for han to need a nerf?

to be honest I think the main thing to nerf from han would be crossbow. Changing cost from 50 f 50 w to 50 f 40 w 10 m would make it more expensive to mass them, and they would be similar to swordsmen in power/cost setup. 

[alre]

21 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Wow I have never noticed people doing this before. Maybe I should try it. Is it op enough for han to need a nerf?

I did and it didn't work. but i've never been a good boomer.

han food eco is better than other civ's. this was expected.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

I think Han will need a couple nerfs in other areas. The farms are not what makes the civ strong.

[Fabius]

After further play testing.

Ranged troops can no longer go on walls, was this feature intentionally disabled for A26? And if so, why?

Why must Rome always rely on skirmishers, why can we not have an archer as well? Almost all civs have two or more ranged infantry options. The only other exception is Sparta and they at least have superb melee infantry to compensate. 

Catapults have utility against rams again  

[hamdich]

On 24/10/2022 at 9:08 PM, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I think Han will need a couple nerfs in other areas. The farms are not what makes the civ strong.

the food income is one of the things .  also crossbows seems very op 

[hamdich]

On 31/10/2022 at 11:35 PM, Fabius said:

Why must Rome always rely on skirmishers, why can we not have an archer as well? Almost all civs have two or more ranged infantry options. The only other exception is Sparta and they at least have superb melee infantry to compensate. 

i think because devs trying to make romans close to the nearby Factions  ( gauls , macedonians , athenians ,sparta , iberians ) though iberians  and athenians have slings option.