Introducing the Official community mod for Alpha 26

[real_tabasco_sauce]

5 hours ago, Player of 0AD said:

@real_tabasco_sauce   What about making the default weapon of the immortals the bow, not the spear? The spear is only advantageous against melee cav and structures.

I see the complaint, but I have to say, wouldn't it be nice if the melee version was more useful? In that case, it would be fine to start them as spearmen.

This would be an easy change, but I am keen to see if the melee buff brings any improvement to the situation first.

[Player of 0AD]

38 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I see the complaint, but I have to say, wouldn't it be nice if the melee version was more useful? In that case, it would be fine to start them as spearmen.

This would be an easy change, but I am keen to see if the melee buff brings any improvement to the situation first.

I don't see why we need a change in that regard

[real_tabasco_sauce]

15 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said:

I don't see why we need a change in that regard

U mean the melee buff or the making the immortals default to archer form?

[Player of 0AD]

5 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

U mean the melee buff or the making the immortals default to archer form?

Melee buff

[Fabius]

Curious suggestion, can we test giving Rome a Cretan merc archer and see how it does in terms of improvement and balance?

[Yekaterina]

1 hour ago, Fabius said:

Curious suggestion, can we test giving Rome a Cretan merc archer and see how it does in terms of improvement and balance?

I think this is a very good idea because they lack any long ranged unit. It would make the Romans more comfortable to play with, without making them completely OP compared to the rest.

 

The Immortals should spawn as melee by default because the Persians need a melee champion. With that being said, I think it would be better if the Immortals had an option to switch to sword mode as well.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

@Player of 0AD,

Well its not really a pure buff, but a rebalance:

• reduce melee armor.
• infantry melee units slightly faster.
• increase melee damage.
• decrease ranged damage.

If you are worried about a change in the meta, that is expected. However, this is just for the community mod for playtesting.

Edited April 13, 2023 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Yekaterina]

4 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

reduce melee armor.

I think we should do the opposite. Persian infantry seem to lack very well armoured units, so I would not oppose giving them something closer to a pikeman.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@Helicity

Infantry being armor focused is what makes them suck. In 0ad there are 2 types of players: those that snipe and those that don't. Players that snipe find it easy to deal with pikemen because they can target the ranged units behind them and simply ignore the damage of the pikemen. Players that don't snipe are frustrated by their low-dps units struggling to kill pikemen while their lower armor (persians) melee units die much faster than enemy pikes. Given equal force composition, a player who snipes will win 100% of the time.

This overall situation describes a25 and a26, which has been called 'meatshield meta'. The core of the issue is that melee units are balanced such that they have huge armor and low damage. This results in them being used simply as a "meat shield" to save your ranged units which account for the vast majority of the damage of armies.

In order to give melee units combat value (killing potential) they need to do way more damage than they do currently. 2x damage would make melee units quite powerful, but with the current armor they would be quite OP. Reducing armor is done to allow their balance to settle at a higher damage value, so that they can have a higher combat value.

 

[alre]

12 hours ago, Helicity said:

I think we should do the opposite. Persian infantry seem to lack very well armoured units, so I would not oppose giving them something closer to a pikeman.

maybe a shield bearer? 

[ChronA]

Squishy is kind of Persia's signature flavor in military matters, at least as the Greeks liked to tell it. Although arguably the Persian soldiers were actually just as well or slightly better armored than was the norm at the time, it's just that the Greeks were extreme outliers by wearing insanely protective kit.

Regardless, if you want to represent that idea in game I think the trick is to make Persian units tanky per cost but squishy per individual. For instance suppose you dropped the shield bearer's cost from 50 Food 50 wood to 50 food 10 wood. The trick is then to balance that against the economic windfall they would get from cheap CS.

[Yekaterina]

1 hour ago, ChronA said:

at least as the Greeks liked to tell it.

Exactly, the Greeks would derogate the Persians in any way they can since the Persians were their enemy and the Greeks won the battle. In reality, the Persian soldiers might not have been as fragile as the Greeks claimed.

2 hours ago, ChronA said:

Persian units tanky per cost but squishy per individual. For instance suppose you dropped the shield bearer's cost from 50 Food 50 wood to 50 food 10 wood. The trick is then to balance that against the economic windfall they would get from cheap CS.

They already have great economy. Units die too quickly in 0ad and you can never reinforce as fast as units are killed, so having resources and price bonus doesn't help. More durable units for a higher price is more suitable for them.

[Yekaterina]

@BreakfastBurrito_007 the current meta is such that unless we lower the damage of everything, your melee units die before they can even reach the enemy. I am totally for raising the damage of melee, but we also must slow down the rate of killing. Battles are just way too fast for any type of units or mixture. Pikeman is the only one which can live for a reasonable length.

The solution is: after we get a good melee damage value relative to ranged, we multiply the damage of everything by a factor 0.5. This will slow down the killing. You might think that requiring 20 shots to kill a spearman is ridiculous, but be reminded that most players enter battles with 50-100 ranged units at a time, which means at least 3 to 4 spearman will perish in the first second.

[causative]

Why not take some advice from history about the role of skirmishers and ranged units vs the role of spearmen?

Historically, Hellenistic city-states would go into battle with a large force of hoplites in phalanx, which would meet in melee with the enemy phalanx of hoplites. There would also be thousands of less-equipped skirmishers and infantry around with slings and throwing weapons. The role of the skirmishers would be to harass the enemy skirmishers, protect the flanks, and generally be an irritation before the hoplite vs hoplite battle begins. Once the hoplites start fighting, the skirmishers have little to do, because they can't shoot at the hoplites once they meet, or they would hit the backs of their own hoplites. Also, hoplite shields and armor were really good protection against missile weapons aimed at the front.

So, hoplites can tank a lot of ranged fire especially when shot from the front, and friendly fire was an important consideration in who the slingers and javelineers could hit. The norm of 0ad where the skirmishers fire right into the melee and miraculously only hit enemy units is unrealistic and ahistorical. And from a gameplay perspective it devalues hoplites. Once the melee starts, the shooting should stop.

Perhaps there could be a friendly-fire rule where slingers, skirmishers, and archers will do friendly fire damage, and won't automatically target an enemy if a friend is adjacent to it, unless the enemy is a higher value target.

Edited April 14, 2023 by causative

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

1 hour ago, Helicity said:

The solution is: after we get a good melee damage value relative to ranged, we multiply the damage of everything by a factor 0.5

That is very close to what has been done by @real_tabasco_sauce. Although not quite a factor of 1/2.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 hour ago, Helicity said:

after we get a good melee damage value relative to ranged, we multiply the damage of everything by a factor 0.5.

 

23 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Well its not really a pure buff, but a rebalance:

• reduce melee armor.
• infantry melee units slightly faster.
• increase melee damage.
• decrease ranged damage.

 

I did this, but with 0.75, which handily maintains the current total damage by combined armies.

https://gitlab.com/real_tabasco_sauce/0-a-d-community-mod-unit-specific-upgrades/-/compare/main...melee_buff?from_project_id=36954588&straight=false

[Yekaterina]

43 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

https://gitlab.com/real_tabasco_sauce/0-a-d-community-mod-unit-specific-upgrades/-/compare/main...melee_buff?from_project_id=36954588&straight=false

How can I test the effect of this?

 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

use version two. Its not easy to get proper play testing together, so thats why it will hopefully be a community mod change.

Edited April 14, 2023 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

7 hours ago, Helicity said:

Exactly, the Greeks would derogate the Persians in any way they can since the Persians were their enemy and the Greeks won the battle. In reality, the Persian soldiers might not have been as fragile as the Greeks claimed.

Regardless of bias, Persians did in fact field highly effectual heavy infantry: Greeks.  The use of Greek mercenaries is quite apparent when you look at cases such as (prince) Cyrus employing 10,000 hoplites or Darius III making use of Memnon's company.  

[Yekaterina]

4 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Persians did in fact field highly effectual heavy infantry: Greeks.  The use of Greek mercenaries is quite apparent when you look at cases such as (prince) Cyrus employing 10,000 hoplites or Darius III making use of Memnon's company.  

Let Persians train these Greek units in the form of mercenary?

 

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

13 hours ago, Helicity said:

Let Persians train these Greek units in the form of mercenary?

Basically, yes.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Community mod version 6:

• Melee/Ranged rebalancing
  • Melee units: +50% damage, less armor
  • Ranged units: -25% damage (roughly the same damage vs melee because of reduced armor)
  • Buildings and siege adjusted for higher hack damage
  • Melee infantry slightly faster 9.5 ms base movement speed.
  • clubmen get a small hack attack so they have fighting use.
• Non random building ai
  • Buildings target closest units by default
  • click to target units and select rally point on unit
  • ctrl click to just set rally point to unit
  • Accuracy for cc and forts reduced.
• Han fixes:
  • poison arrows tech cost changed to 1200 food 1200 metal
  • Fields easier to place
• Elephants get a splash attack
• Maury Heros:
  • Chanakya: doesn't need to garrison for tech discount, slightly lower discount.
  • Chandragupta: global ele bonus for speed and attack rate, local armor bonus for all soldiers
• Catapults smaller range and gain a splash attack

Edited January 30 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Player of 0AD]

11 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Community mod version 6:

• Melee/Ranged rebalancing
  • Melee units: +50% damage, less armor
  • Ranged units: -25% damage (roughly the same damage vs melee because of reduced armor)
  • Buildings and siege adjusted for higher hack damage
  • Melee infantry slightly faster 9.5 ms base movement speed.
  • clubmen get a small hack attack so they have fighting use.
• Non random building ai
  • Buildings target closest units by default
  • click to target units and select rally point on unit
  • ctrl click to just set rally point to unit
  • Accuracy for cc and forts reduced.
• Han fixes:
  • poison arrows tech cost changed to 1200 food 1200 metal
  • Fields easier to place
• Elephants get a splash attack
• Maury Heros:
  • Chanakya: doesn't need to garrison for tech discount, slightly lower discount.
  • Chandragupta: global ele bonus for speed and attack rate, local armor bonus for all soldiers

Does anyone know how to download version 26.4 manually? "Downloading" 26.6 just *updated* the mod, so I can't watch my old replays now anymore -.-

[Feldfeld]

8 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said:

Does anyone know how to download version 26.4 manually? "Downloading" 26.6 just *updated* the mod, so I can't watch my old replays now anymore -.-

Yes check here

 

[Player of 0AD]

11 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Community mod version 6:

• Non random building ai
  • Buildings target closest units by default
  • click to target units and select rally point on unit
  • ctrl click to just set rally point to unit
• Maury Heros:
  • Chanakya: doesn't need to garrison for tech discount, slightly lower discount.
  •  

Why removing the bonus for allied buildings where you garrison Chanakya?

And why not the other way around: ctrl click  to target units and select rally point on unit etc 

Reason: In most cases you just ungarrison units on rams, but you don't want to shoot at them.