Introducing the Official community mod for Alpha 26

[chrstgtr]

9 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I think they should be differentiated units, rather than just superior versions of infantry. What do you think of the health nerf I provided? Would you agree ranged cav are also too tanky? 

 

They are differentiated--they are more expensive, have different armor, attack, health, and speed stats. 

I honestly, am not a fan of the proposal in its current form. I don't have a problem with cav except that they don't die when they clearly should (i.e., walking straight through a ball of inf with minimal losses) and spear inf don't counter them (i.e., skirm cav can easily out micro inf spear because of speed AND champ, merc, and promoted CS melee cav can easily beat spear inf in a head on fight).

I have no problem with skirm cav dmg.

EDIT: there are lots of differing opinions, here, which is why I think revisions to cav should be taken on as individual units (i.e., work on champ sword cav first) instead of an overall change to all cav. 

9 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

you can change that in options->session->battalions

Very helpful. Thank you. 

Edited November 28, 2022 by chrstgtr

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

29 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

50 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I like the "stickiness" feature in AOE4 (and Rome Total War), where if cav are hit by spearmen they temporarily lose aa small amount of speed. It's more pronounced in Rome Total War, which has more realistic simulation-mechanics, but it's also there in AOE4. 

Sounds like it has potential. Do we have the coding capabilities to do this, though?

I would be ok with this only if it was on a unit by unit basis (to prevent the AOE3 implementation) and I think the mechanic needs to be designed so that subsequent spear hits have less of this effect (so that the cav can eventually get away rather than being permanently stuck). 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

58 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

what could be done is increase the pierce damage of spearmen such that they damage ranged cav more (with 3 hack 1 pierce armor).

spearmen also seem to be generally worse than swords, so I think this would be welcome.

what about this?

the cav speed nerf (is -1 m/s too much?) and this might be enough for the near term.

Edited November 28, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

23 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

Totally off topic, but I really dislike how you can't individual control units (or unit types) in formations in a26. 

Not only can you turn this off, you can also set a hotkey to have both worlds. (in my setup, I can Alt-Shift to select units out of a formation).

[chrstgtr]

10 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

what about this?

The problem is cav. I wouldn't mess with inf stats because that will have other knock on effects. 

11 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

the cav speed nerf (is 1 m/s too much?) and this might be enough for the near term.

Maybe. Would have to test. I would be in favor of it. Sidenote: this would also really help inf vs. archer cav. I am not sure that is a "fix" that needs to happen (as opposed to just have cav be the counter to archer cav), but it is a fix I would like. 

5 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Not only can you turn this off, you can also set a hotkey to have both worlds. (in my setup, I can Alt-Shift to select units out of a formation).

Very helpful. Thank you. I just don't like the current set up because it makes it difficult to snipe and easy to lose your hero. But this fixes that.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

k all done:

merge requests:https://gitlab.com/0ad/0ad-community-mod-a26/-/merge_requests

branches comparison:

https://gitlab.com/real_tabasco_sauce/0-a-d-community-mod-unit-specific-upgrades/-/compare/main...cav_speed?from_project_id=36954588&straight=false

https://gitlab.com/0ad/0ad-community-mod-a26/-/merge_requests/22/diffs

These 2 shouldn't make a very big difference overall, but I expect them to help bring down cavalry's survivability.

Feel free to comment on other merge requests I have submitted. I did one lowering crush armor, one for allowing the roman army camp in p2, and one for adjusting pikemen damage/armor.

also, there is a slight crossbow nerf.

Edited November 28, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[chrstgtr]

50 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

what about this?

Not a fan. Cav is the problem. I wouldn't change inf stats because that impacts other stuff. Spears are meant to be worse than swords. 

51 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

the cav speed nerf (is -1 m/s too much?) and this might be enough for the near term.

Maybe. Would have to be tested. I would support. 

45 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Not only can you turn this off, you can also set a hotkey to have both worlds. (in my setup, I can Alt-Shift to select units out of a formation).

Awesome. Thanks. 

[Philip the Swaggerless]

Make Alexander Great Again

When playing as Macedonians, who actually chooses Alexander the Great as their preferred hero?  From his conquest, Macedon quickly became the largest ancient empire!  People looked back on him for generations as OP.  I think he should be THE or ONE OF the top heroes of this game.

10% Territory increase doesn't help you much in the game.  Especially since, IIRC, your territory's ability to take over enemy territory is diluted by how large your territory influence is.

I've tried to use the CC capture thing to my advantage, but haven't found it very strong.  You pretty much need to damage the enemy CC no matter what, which is fair.  It is a cool idea, but it can't be his only thing.

Attack bonus vs other heroes is a cool minor perk.  Still weaker than Cleopatra's health de-buff.

I propose his benefits be:

Alexander

• Counters: 1.2x bonus vs Heroes
• Conqueror: Enemy Civic Centers - 50% Capture Points Garrisoned Regeneration Rate. 60 meters
• Inspired Defense: When garrisoned, the structure has +2 capture points garrison regeneration rate.
• Imperialism: Structures + 10 Territory Influence Radius

 

• 40 Meter Aura: Own Soldiers (not siege) +10% Ranged and Melee Damage.
  • He wasn't just some guy who captured buildings.  His army kicked butt on the field.  (Same rationale for below)
• 50 Meter Aura: Enemy units & Structures -10% Ranged and Melee Attack Damage
  • I think this is better than an armor boost because it emphasizes his active role in battles.  He can't sit back behind everyone to get the benefit.  However, I wouldn't want it to promote "dancing."   An alternate would be Own Units + 1 Hack/Pierce/Crush Damage.

If these benefits seem to make Philip II irrelevant, maybe his aura could be changed to a Pikeman bonus, since I believe he was the one that the whole pikeman thing going.  I don't feel strongly that this is necessary but here is one idea.

Philip II

Rise of Macedon: Champions + 2 Capture Attack, +20% Ranged/Melee Damage

Pikemen + 100% Melee Damage

 

 

Edited November 28, 2022 by Philip the Swaggerless
increased defensive aura from 40-50 meters

[alre]

2 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

That would resemble a25 acceleration because the time it would take to reach walk speed would be negligible, so yes it would be noticeable.

what I meant is I don't see noticeable effects of acceleration on inf vs cav gameplay. unit chasing with equal speed units is different in this regard, although one must factor running.

[alre]

3 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

Wrong discussion. 

it's called "introducing a new subject".

[alre]

what about changing the multiplier for inf spears and pikes? 5x maybe?

[real_tabasco_sauce]

@Philip the Swaggerless nice idea, I don’t really see any major conflict with Phillip II, since the Phillip II’s aura only effects champions.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Also If anyone has an Agis idea, I’d be happy to hear it.

[Dakara]

12 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Also If anyone has an Agis idea, I’d be happy to hear it.

Some idea of bonus

1) When AGIS 3 is in garnison, all champions are train instant in this building. 

2)AGIS 3 is cavalery now and he give bonus speed aura in medium range at cavalery ally by 3 points.

3)Agis 3 stop the production of ennemy building in a large area around him. 

4)Agis 3 can put a flag on map ( max 1 flag in map.) he build it instant, this flag give 5 hp to all unit of the player in medium area.

5)Agis 3 stop all the healing in the area around him.  Agis 3 is melee so it not op op, ennemy should put off combat Agis 3 if he want use healer. interesting combat mechanic, you have to adjust the range of the penalty aura.

[Dakara]

15 hours ago, Philip the Swaggerless said:

Make Alexander Great Again

When playing as Macedonians, who actually chooses Alexander the Great as their preferred hero?  From his conquest, Macedon quickly became the largest ancient empire!  People looked back on him for generations as OP.  I think he should be THE or ONE OF the top heroes of this game.

10% Territory increase doesn't help you much in the game.  Especially since, IIRC, your territory's ability to take over enemy territory is diluted by how large your territory influence is.

I've tried to use the CC capture thing to my advantage, but haven't found it very strong.  You pretty much need to damage the enemy CC no matter what, which is fair.  It is a cool idea, but it can't be his only thing.

Attack bonus vs other heroes is a cool minor perk.  Still weaker than Cleopatra's health de-buff.

I propose his benefits be:

Alexander

• Counters: 1.2x bonus vs Heroes IF it is only damage of alexandre is insignifiant i prefer X2 damage, so sparta heroe is the hero killer civ.
• Conqueror: Enemy Civic Centers - 50% Capture Points Garrisoned Regeneration Rate. 60 meters
• Inspired Defense: When garrisoned, the structure has +2 capture points garrison regeneration rate.
• Imperialism: Structures + 10 Territory Influence Radius yes delete
• Like immortel we can swap for Cavalerie Hero to Infanterie Heroe.  so we can adapt the speed of alexandre at his main troops.
• +500 hp

 

• 40 Meter Aura: Own Soldiers (not siege) +10% Ranged and Melee Damage. Only melee
  • He wasn't just some guy who captured buildings.  His army kicked butt on the field.  (Same rationale for below)
• 50 Meter Aura: Enemy units & Structures -10% Ranged and Melee Attack Damage Only ranged
  • I think this is better than an armor boost because it emphasizes his active role in battles.  He can't sit back behind everyone to get the benefit.  However, I wouldn't want it to promote "dancing."   An alternate would be Own Units + 1 Hack/Pierce/Crush Damage.

If these benefits seem to make Philip II irrelevant, maybe his aura could be changed to a Pikeman bonus, since I believe he was the one that the whole pikeman thing going.  I don't feel strongly that this is necessary but here is one idea.

Philip II

Rise of Macedon: Champions + 2 Capture Attack, +20% Ranged/Melee Damage hard to say goodbye to op cham   but interesting to see the effect of pikemen with 100% damage more 

Pikemen + 100% Melee Damage agree

 

 

 

[chrstgtr]

2 hours ago, Dakara said:

3)Agis 3 stop the production of ennemy building in a large area around him.

This sounds new and fun

[Fabius]

20 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

work on champ sword cav first

There is only one faction with champion sword cavalry and that's Rome, and is arguably the best thing they have going for them currently. And its not the only strong melee champion cavalry either, Seleucid cataphracts can stop Consular quite well, so can Persian Bactrian lancers, which is reasonable given the anti cav bonus of lancers. Also they can destroy everything else too. 

That being said, I do think citizen spearmen should have more utility against heavy cavalry, maybe a simple multiplier increase would help, go from 3X to 4X. Or a slower 3.5X. You could make it a blacksmith upgrade as well.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

49 minutes ago, Fabius said:

There is only one faction with champion sword cavalry and that's Rome, and is arguably the best thing they have going for them currently. And its not the only strong melee champion cavalry either, Seleucid cataphracts can stop Consular quite well, so can Persian Bactrian lancers, which is reasonable given the anti cav bonus of lancers. Also they can destroy everything else too. 

https://gitlab.com/0ad/0ad-community-mod-a26/-/merge_requests/22/diffs

this addresses melee champ concerns as well as ranged champs and ranged CS cav.

[chrstgtr]

49 minutes ago, Fabius said:

There is only one faction with champion sword cavalry and that's Rome, and is arguably the best thing they have going for them currently. And its not the only strong melee champion cavalry either, Seleucid cataphracts can stop Consular quite well, so can Persian Bactrian lancers, which is reasonable given the anti cav bonus of lancers. Also they can destroy everything else too. 

That being said, I do think citizen spearmen should have more utility against heavy cavalry, maybe a simple multiplier increase would help, go from 3X to 4X. Or a slower 3.5X. You could make it a blacksmith upgrade as well.

Gauls also have it. I said it as an example of how the problem should be addressed (i.e., each unit type should be addressed one by one). I didn't say whether it should or should not change. (I do, however, think melee champ cav all need to change because the only units that can counter them are champ spear, which are way less mobile and therefore can't actually counter them, and other melee champ cav, which most civs don't have).

Also, Romans are great and are a very diverse civ. Yeah, champ sword cav are their best unit, but I would argue that is a top 3 unit in the game and one that is OP. 

[BeTe]

fyi , regarding p1 cav nerf, there's recent tournament game between Weirdjokes and me. I built cavalry and tried to harass but they seemed useless against infantry slingers with few spearmans. I only lost build time, resources and my attention on them. I did @#$% up macro game, but point is I got literary nothing from cavalry. Not sure what I could do with them better.  

However, I don't find this match is high level, but maybe you guys can see something interesting for balancing.

Cheers.

Edited November 29, 2022 by BeTe

[Feldfeld]

23 minutes ago, BeTe said:

fyi , regarding p1 cav nerf, there's recent tournament game between Weirdjokes and me. I built cavalry and tried to harass but they seemed useless against infantry slingers with few spearmans. I only lost build time, resources and my attention on them. I did @#$% up macro game, but point is I got literary nothing from cavalry. Not sure what I could do with them better.  

However, I don't find this match is high level, but maybe you guys can see something interesting for balancing.

Cheers.

You could have done:
- Better build order
- Coming with more cav (a requirement at that timing unless you spotted a weakness by scouting)
- Focus on disrupting food income (idling women near CC while not staying under its fire, raid the additional berry patch until the slingers come then retreat, force slingers to stay on the berries unless you come back, alternate checking food sources)

Of course against this defensive position and that player it takes good skills to make it. Not many players can do it. I'm curious of what would have happened if I were in your spot.

[BeTe]

Not sure this is topic to have these discussions, so sorry in advance.

But I don't understand first 2 points, what BO would be appropriate and how to come with more cav? I tried without stable to make cav from CC, but then I am behind in women and food production issues later...

I tried to disrupt food, but then cav got injured and I had to heal them. Next time, he used teleportation technique from CC and put slingers and spearmans in my face. He was on stone near cc... And slingers have too much range for cav to harass them. I lost 2 horses then I think. He did nice pull only part of women that are on side of CC where attack happens, remaining half just harvest normaly while I lose health (=time). That secondary berries he harvested while I was healing cavs. 

The only cav that I found useful are Persian 60m range cav. Especially in p2 when you can upgrade them to 70m range.  But still , should be easy to defend. 

[Feldfeld]

15 minutes ago, BeTe said:

But I don't understand first 2 points, what BO would be appropriate and how to come with more cav? I tried without stable to make cav from CC, but then I am behind in women and food production issues later...

Basically look at my game against LetswaveaBook in the tournament. If I didn't get attacked, I would have gone once I had 8 cavs total (so after a batch of 3 cav are trained)

16 minutes ago, BeTe said:

I tried to disrupt food, but then cav got injured and I had to heal them.

That's because
- Your opponent had a few units inside CC so this shoots more arrows
- You stayed too long under despite that
- You had a low number of cav so CC arrows don't get split and that makes you have to go back sooner as cav gets in low health sooner.
Of course unit management is tricky there especially if you are against this opponent.

After you went back I stopped watching because from there you lost the timing to pretend making damage. Since you didn't disrupt enough on your first go then the economy advantage of your opponent is too strong and he can defend the rest

22 minutes ago, BeTe said:

The only cav that I found useful are Persian 60m range cav. Especially in p2 when you can upgrade them to 70m range.  But still , should be easy to defend.

Well tell this to vinme's opponents he got himself a good elo by only using persian archer cav strategy pretty much. Not saying it's easy of course it takes skills to do that strategy properly.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

@chrstgtr the noble cavalry are spear cavalry. Rome is the only civ with champ swordcav, and they are pretty OP.

Edited November 30, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[chrstgtr]

31 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

@chrstgtr the noble cavalry are spear cavalry. Rome is the only civ with champ swordcav, and they are pretty OP.

Well today I learned. Anyways, I think all melee champ cav is OP because most civs can’t counter them. 
 

but my general point is a grand solution patch that makes everyone happy probably doesn’t exist but a more narrow patch probably does (ie how only fire cav were changed last alpha)

Edited November 30, 2022 by chrstgtr