collision circles really need to be increased, totally impossible to count enemy units with any decent level of accuracy

[vinme]

because units overlap with eachother, so 4 may almost look like one.

[Player of 0AD]

Or make it possible to select hostile units so you can see how many they are. It should also be possible to select much more units than 200.

If units overlap there is less lag

 

[ChronA]

1 hour ago, Player of 0AD said:

Or make it possible to select hostile units so you can see how many they are. It should also be possible to select much more units than 200.

Or collision circles really need to be increased... and if that requires reducing unit counts so the engine will remain performant then so be it.

What is the point of having 800 units on screen if you cannot clearly see a single one of them because they all congeal into a single undifferentiable blob of human neutronium?

[Yekaterina]

35 minutes ago, ChronA said:

What is the point of having 800 units on screen if you cannot clearly see a single one of them because they all congeal into a single undifferentiable blob of human neutronium?

If you have 401 and your enemy has 399, you will win the fight. However, I would still recommend we decrease overlapping as that causes many problems with micro and pathfinding. 

[Stan`]

@vinme, @Sevda is this a comment on the RC or on A25b?

[Yekaterina]

I was refering to A25b, sorry about the confusion. I haven't been able to fight huge battles in A26 with any real human so I can't be certain about that. 

 

[LetswaveaBook]

On 12/06/2022 at 2:58 PM, vinme said:

because units overlap with eachother, so 4 may almost look like one.

Everyone praises A25, but I think A25 has some problems and overlapping is a serious one.

[alre]

yeah, @wraitii corrected this in A26. I had the impression that it's not enough, but I never bothered to test a new set of parameters. If you want to, check this discussion:

 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

On 12/06/2022 at 6:31 AM, Player of 0AD said:

If units overlap there is less lag

really? I didn't know.

[Player of 0AD]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

really? I didn't know.

In A24 the units blocked each other which was bad for the performance

[real_tabasco_sauce]

4 hours ago, Player of 0AD said:

In A24 the units blocked each other which was bad for the performance

i guess it was hard for me to tell, since the units and unit rotations were so slow already.

[wraitii]

The overlap is to enable more crowd-like movement, which improves performance and pathing in general. However, A25 had some workarounds that could lead to significant overlap.

The RC / A26 should be much better in that respect, though you'll still get significant overlap in some situations, particularly for cavalry.

Left is A26, right is the older A25 setting.

I sort of agree that counting enemies should be done by selecting their units though.

[chrstgtr]

6 hours ago, wraitii said:

I sort of agree that counting enemies should be done by selecting their units though.

+1

 

6 hours ago, wraitii said:

The RC / A26 should be much better in that respect, though you'll still get significant overlap in some situations, particularly for cavalry.

Isn't this a huge area of improvement, though? I thought the calvary straight lines that contain a bunch of overlapping units was one of the improvements in a26

[Stan`]

 

 

 

 

[wraitii]

1 hour ago, chrstgtr said:

Isn't this a huge area of improvement, though? I thought the calvary straight lines that contain a bunch of overlapping units was one of the improvements in a26

It's improved the same as the infantry, but cavalry doesn't take more 'space' than infantry despite the larger mesh size. That remains future work for now.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@wraitii this might make it easier to defend against cavalry using palisades. This would be a great change, because if they have to squeeze through breaks in palisades, then it might create opportunities for defenders to get more hits. One of the things making general cavalry a bit op in a25 (some cav are more op than others) is that it is very hard to counter the movement advantage that they get.

:D

[wraitii]

1 hour ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

@wraitii this might make it easier to defend against cavalry using palisades. This would be a great change, because if they have to squeeze through breaks in palisades, then it might create opportunities for defenders to get more hits. One of the things making general cavalry a bit op in a25 (some cav are more op than others) is that it is very hard to counter the movement advantage that they get.

Note that changing the cavalry to use its own pathfinder size would be much slower, but changing the pushing logic is cheaper and perhaps doable.

On chokepoints specifically though, the 'bogging down' mechanic in A26 should help, potentially significantly.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

Yes @wraitii I think the acceleration can also be used by an infantry defender too. I have been testing merc cav and they are of course still very powerful but I am trying to see if they can be countered by restricting their movement, this was just using a few 1v1s in RC lobby. I am trying to organize big TGs on the new release candidate and we will hopefully see a variety of situations on those games.

[vinme]

On 12/06/2022 at 8:14 PM, Stan` said:

@vinme, @Sevda is this a comment on the RC or on A25b?

a25

selecting enemy units i think is a rly bad idea, itll ruin part of game which is randomness/esimtating enemy forces.

wasnt distorting enemys perception of your forces a thing historically? making differing formations to show an illusion of greater or lesser numbers.

501 doesnt always beat 499, in such numbers especially, randomness will be huge prob nearly 50/50 wins.

because of pathfinding, and fundamental randomness of engage, fights will always vary insanely.

you cant ever get rid of luck, without getting rid of interesting aspects of the game, which is open systems, not based in concrete, known or predictable paradigms.

This is what makes 0ad interesting and allows for infinite improvement and options.

in even game, one side gets some tiny advnatage from luck, and has to capitalize on it since if popcap is hit, any small advantage diminishes.

Therefore luck creates scenarios and variability thatll bring out unique landscapes of competition, and it evens out eventually, over many games, everyone getting even random advantages/disadvantages.

 

[vinme]

On 13/06/2022 at 11:12 PM, LetswaveaBook said:

Everyone praises A25, but I think A25 has some problems and overlapping is a serious one.

many good things, many bad things in 0ad, for one huge example, brokenness of pto that seems to be increasing instead of decreasing, removal of stoas from athen and sparta, for smaller example merc cav slightly too cheap(ik its fixed a26 ive been told), jav inf are way too slow in relation to slings, merely 5% faster(if its 7-8% would be much better)

archers are considered too weak ofc, but i changed my mind on this with the way sniping is now the new meta, which totally transforms the way the game is played, towards the better giving unique qualities to all units.

the ease of defending with longer ranged unit when near cc, baracs, closed or cluttered landscape, and advantage it has when played properly totally makes archers completely fine, especially the boost in value later on in game with 20% spread tech becoming cheap as game progresses, with mapcontroll play and in again, closed areas.

yes archers weak in direct fights, but all archer civs have some other ways of gameplay, without relying purely on archers dps.

OP complete denial of inferior range cavalry harass play if spear+archer with proper reaction time and army composition.

huge denial of enemy small count cav mobility around your base, etc.