Differentiating Civilizations: Persian

[Lion.Kanzen]

there should be formation for this.

The typical tactic of the Persians in the early Achaemenid period was an evolution of the Assyrian tactic used before. The Assyrians would deploy a row of shield bearers and a row of archers behind them. The Persians had one row of shield-bearers known as “sparabara” with nine rows of archers behind them. A unit of 10,000 Persian warriors arranged in this manner could fire 100,000 arrows in a minute and keep up this rate of fire for several minutes. As you may know from the movie “300”, the Persian archery would seem to “blot out the sun” with such high-intensity volleys.

https://archeryhistorian.com/persian-archery/

[AIEND]

31 分钟前，Lion.Kanzen 说：

应该有这方面的形成。

波斯人在阿契美尼德早期的典型战术是以前使用的亚述战术的演变。 亚述人会在他们身后部署一排持盾者和一排弓箭手。 波斯人有一排被称为“sparabara”的持盾者，身后有九排弓箭手。 以这种方式排列的10,000名波斯战士的单位可以在1分钟内发射100,000支箭，并保持这种射速几分钟。 正如你可能从电影《300》中知道的那样，波斯射箭用如此高强度的齐射似乎会“遮住太阳”。

https://archeryhistorian.com/persian-archery/

In my impression, the spabara do not seem to be spearmen in the general impression, they are also archers themselves.
According to Herodotus's account, the Persian infantrymen all carried wicker shields, bows and spears, that is to say, the Persian infantrymen were all archers with shields and spears, except that the archers in the first row did not shoot arrows during battle. It is to cover the comrades behind with shields and spears. If he is killed, the soldiers in the second row can also use their shields and spears to fill the vacancies in the first row.
Of course, the army of the Persian Empire was not only of Persians, but also of many other ethnic groups. Those ethnic groups had specialized spearmen, such as the Assyrians. According to Herodotus, they were still armed as in the late Assyrian Empire. He wears a bronze helmet, linen armor, and holds an Egyptian-style shield, as well as a sword, spear, and mace.

[borg-]

The idea I have for sparabara is that he has an aura that increases the pierce resistance of archers, but I don't know how useful this is in a real game, I don't think it would work very well.

The other idea that I think is more plausible playing, is that he has a pierce armor of 7 and hack of 3. It should be a unit resistant to ranged but weak in melee combat.

[AIEND]

6 minutes ago, borg- said:

我对 sparabara 的想法是他有一个光环，可以增加弓箭手的穿刺抗性，但我不知道这在实际游戏中有多有用，我认为它不会很好用。

另一个我认为更合理的想法是，他的穿甲为 7，破甲为 3。它应该是一个抵抗远程但在近战中较弱的单位。

Actually in my opinion one should do a dedicated Assyrian spearman and then have the sparabara as a switch form of the archer, and then like you said, an infantry that is more resistant to projectile weapons but is more vulnerable in melee combat .

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 hour ago, borg- said:

The other idea that I think is more plausible playing, is that he has a pierce armor of 7 and hack of 3.

@borg- do you refer to the weapon switching persian immortals here? I think this is the best way to balance the weapon switching unit (hack armor of the champ archer, pierce armor of the champ spearman) It may be necessary to go further and subtract another 1 for hack and pierce.

If you are referring to the normal citizen soldier spearmen, I think they should remain as is. The basic spearman stats should be constant across all civs (except for perks like the spartan team bonus).

Certainly auras should be avoided with this many units.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

Does anyone know which unit would be the one at the end, does it have a whip?

[Lion.Kanzen]

Historical details of the military training of the ancient Persian army seem nonexistent. However, Xenophon’s Cyropaedia describes the military training process a Persian youth went through. According to Xenophon 1.2.9, a Persian male at age seventeen would undergo combat training for a length of ten years.

 

Now the young men in their turn would live as follows: for ten years after they are promoted from the class of boys they passed the nights, as we said before, about the government buildings. This they did for the sake of guarding the city and to develop their powers of self-control; for this time of life, it seems, demands the most watchful care. And during the day, too, they put themselves at the disposal of the authorities, if they were needed for any service to the state. Whenever it was necessary, they all remained around the public buildings. But when the king went out hunting, he took out half the garrison; and this he did many times a month. Those who went must take bow and arrows and, in addition to the quiver, a sabre or bill in its scabbard; they carried along also a light shield and two spears, one to throw, the other to use in case of necessity in a hand-to-hand encounter.

9 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Does anyone know which unit would be the one at the end, does it have a whip?

Herodotus 7.223 mentions that at the battle of Thermopylae 480 BCE, the Persian officers pushed the “men to go forward against their opponents, who are lashed towards the Spartans by their officers.” Now, one can take this to mean as I had previously stated or that it was custom for officers to whip their men forward, professional or not, like the Roman centurions who carried vine-staffs.

 

http://www.camrea.org/2016/11/22/the-persian-war-machine-organization-and-command-part-i/

[real_tabasco_sauce]

I don't mind the discussion of history and things, but I do not see how such changes (auras, weapon switching, different armor) to basic spearmen could be beneficial for gameplay.

Since it is a simplistic unit for all civs, sparabaras (spearmen) should remain as is.

 

There is already a weapon switching unit in @borg-'s mod (persian immortal), and we should discuss how best to balance that unit instead. Here is why: switching to the melee immortal before cavalry (archer's biggest weakness) attack is very OP. The unit has no real counter as of the last version of the mod.

I suggest this:

3 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

The other idea that I think is more plausible playing, is that he has a pierce armor of 7 and hack of 3.

3 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

(hack armor of the champ archer, pierce armor of the champ spearman)

Edited June 23, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Freagarach]

14 hours ago, AIEND said:

just like people in modern times will carry their mobile phones with them when they go out.

[Genava55]

  From an old thread:

On 07/07/2021 at 12:39 AM, Genava55 said:

Herodotus account:

[60] I cannot give an exact breakdown of how many men each contingent contributed to the total, because not one person has recorded this information, but it turned out that there were 1,700,000 men altogether in the land army. The census was conducted as follows. Ten thousand men were assembled in a single area and packed as closely together as possible; a circle was drawn round the outside of the body of men (who were then dismissed) and a waist-high wall was built around the circle. Then more men were introduced into the enclosed area, and so on until everyone had been counted. After the census, the men were organized into contingents based on nationality.

[61] Here are the peoples which made up Xerxes’ army. First, there were the Persians, dressed as follows. On their heads they wore tiaras, as they call them, which are loose, felt caps, and their bodies were clothed in colourful tunics with sleeves (and breastplates)† of iron plate, looking rather like fish-scales. Their legs were covered in trousers and instead of normal shields they carried pieces of wickerwork. They had quivers hanging under their shields, short spears, large bows, arrows made of cane, and also daggers hanging from their belts down beside their right thighs. They were commanded by Otanes, whose daughter Amestris was Xerxes’ wife. In times past the Greeks used to call Persians Cephenes (even though both they and their neighbours called them Artaei), but then Perseus, the son of Danaë and Zeus, came to Cepheus the son of Belus, married his daughter Andromeda, and had a son, whom he called Perses. Cepheus had no male children, so Perseus left Perses there, and as a result the Persians are named after Perses.

[62] The Median contingent wore the same clothes as the Persians, since it was in fact a Median style of clothing, rather than a Persian one. Their commander was an Achaemenid called Tigranes. Medes used to be called Arians by everybody, but when Medea of Colchis left Athens and arrived in their country—this is what the Medes themselves say—they too changed their name.

The Cissian contingent was clothed and equipped in the Persian style, except that they wore turbans instead of caps. They were commanded by Anaphes the son of Otanes.

The Hyrcanians also had the same equipment as the Persians, and were commanded by Megapanus, who later became the governor of Babylon.

[63] The Assyrian contingent wore on their heads either bronze helmets or plaited helmets of a peculiarly foreign design which is hard to describe. Their shields, spears, and daggers resembled Egyptian ones, and they also carried wooden clubs with iron studs, and wore linen breastplates. These are the people the Greeks call Syrians, but they were called Assyrians by the Persian invaders. Their commander was Otaspes the son of Artachaees.

[64] The Bactrian contingent wore headgear which was very similar to that of the Medes, and were armed with native cane bows and short spears. The Sacae, a Scythian tribe, had as headgear kurbasias whose crowns were stiffened into an upright point, and wore trousers. They carried native bows and daggers, and also battleaxes called sagareis. They were in fact Scythians from Amyrgium, but they were known as Sacae because that is what the Persians call all Scythians. The commander of both the Bactrian and Sacian contingents was Hystaspes, the son of Darius and Cyrus’ daughter Atossa.

[65] Indian gear consisted of cotton clothing, cane bows and cane arrows with iron heads. For the duration of this expedition they were assigned to the command of Pharnazathres the son of Artabates.

[66] The Arians were equipped like the Bactrians, except that their bows were in the Median style. Their commander was Sisamnes the son of Hydarnes.

Also fitted out like the Bactrians were the Parthians and Chorasmians, commanded by Artabazus the son of Pharnaces; the Sogdians, commanded by Azanes the son of Artaeus; and the Gandarians and Dadicae, commanded by Artyphius the son of Artabanus.

[67] Caspian equipment consisted of jackets, native cane bows, and akinakeis. Their commander was Ariomardus the brother of Artyphius.

The Sarangae were conspicuous for their coloured clothing. They wore knee-high boots and carried bows and Median-style spears. They were commanded by Pherendates the son of Megabazus.

The Pactyes wore jackets and were armed with native bows and daggers. Their commander was Artayntes the son of Ithamitres.

[68] The Utians, Mycians, and Paricanians were fitted out like the Pactyes. The Utians and Mycians were commanded by Arsamenes the son of Darius, and the Paricanians by Siromitres the son of Oeobazus.

[69] The Arabians wore belted zeiras and carried on their right sides long, reflexible bows. The Ethiopians were dressed in leopard skins and lion pelts, and were armed with bows made out of palm fronds. These bows were long, at least four cubits in length, and their arrows were short and tipped not with iron but with a head made from sharpened stone—the kind of stone they also use to engrave signet-rings. They carried spears as well, whose heads were made out of gazelles’ horns sharpened like the head of a lance, and also studded clubs. When they go into battle they paint half of their bodies with chalk and half with ochre. The commander of the Arabians and the Ethiopians from south of Egypt was Arsames, the son of Darius and Cyrus’ daughter Artystone, who was his favourite wife. He had a statue of her made out of beaten gold.

[70] So Arsames was the commander of the Ethiopians from south of Egypt, as well as of the Arabians, but there were two lots of Ethiopians in the army. The eastern Ethiopians were assigned to the Indian contingent; these Ethiopians are exactly the same as the others to look at, but they speak a different language and their hair is different. The eastern Ethiopians have straight hair, while the Libyan ones have curlier hair than any other people in the world. The Asian Ethiopians were equipped more or less in the same fashion as the Indians, except that they wore a head-dress consisting of a horse’s scalp, including the ears and mane. The mane acted as a crest, and the horse’s ears were stiffened into an upright position. Instead of regular shields they had targes made out of crane skins.

[71] The Libyans came wearing leather clothing and armed with javelins whose ends had been burnt into sharp points. Their commander was Massages the son of Oärizus.

[72] The Paphlagonian contingent wore plaited helmets on their heads and were armed with small shields, medium-sized spears, and javelins and daggers as well. On their feet they wore native boots which reached halfway up their shins. The Ligyan contingent had the same equipment as the Paphlagonians, and so did the Matieneans, Mariandynians, and Syrians (whom the Persians call Cappadocians). Dotus the son of Megasidrus was in command of the Paphlagonians and the Matieneans, and Gobryas the son of Darius and Artystone was in command of the Mariandynians, Ligyes, and Syrians.

[73] The Phrygians’ equipment was very similar to that of the Paphlagonians, with only minor differences. According to the Macedonians, the Phrygians were called Briges for as long as they lived in Europe next to the Macedonians, but then when they moved to Asia they changed their name along with their country. The Armenians were fitted out just like the Phrygians—but then they were originally emigrants from Phrygia. Artochmes, who was married to one of Darius’ daughters, was in command of both the Armenians and the Phrygians.

[74] The Lydians’ equipment was not very different from Greek. A long time ago, the Lydians were known as Maeonians, but they changed their name when they named themselves after Lydus the son of Atys. The Mysians wore a native style of helmet on their heads and were armed with small shields and javelins whose ends had been burnt into sharp points. They were originally emigrants from Lydia, and are also known as Olympieni, after Mount Olympus. The Lydians and the Mysians were under the command of Artaphrenes the son of Artaphrenes, who was jointly responsible, with Datis, for the invasion at Marathon.

[75] The Thracian contingent wore fox-skin caps on their heads and were dressed in tunics with colourful zeiras on top; their feet and lower legs were covered in boots made out of fawn-skin. They also carried javelins, bucklers, and small daggers. After they moved from Europe to Asia they were called the Bithynians, but, as they say themselves, before that they were called the Strymonians, because they lived on the River Strymon. They say that they were driven out of their original homeland by the Teucrians and the Mysians. These Asian Thracians were commanded by Bassaces the son of Artabanus.

[76] 〈The Pisidae〉† carried small shields of untreated oxhide. Every man among them was armed with two hunting-spears in the Lycian style, and wore a bronze helmet on his head. Each helmet had the ears and horns of an ox, also in bronze, attached to it, and had a crest as well. They wore red cloths wrapped around their lower legs. There is an oracle of Ares in their country.

[77] The Cabalians (who are known as Lasonians, despite being of Maeonian stock) were fitted out in the same way as the Cilicians, and so I will describe their equipment when I come to the Cilician contingent in my account.

The Milyans carried short spears and wore cloaks fastened with a brooch. Some of them had Lycian-style bows and wore on their heads helmets made out of leather. The whole Milyan contingent was under the command of Badres the son of Hystanes.

[78] The Moschians wore wooden helmets on their heads and carried shields and spears which were short, but with long points. The Tibarenians, Macrones, and Mossynoecians had the same equipment as the Moschians. The Moschians and Tibarenians formed a single contingent under the command of Ariomardus, the son of Darius and Parmys, who was the daughter of Smerdis and granddaughter of Cyrus. The Macrones and Mossynoecians together formed another contingent under the command of Artayctes the son of Cherasmis, who was the governor of Sestus on the Hellespont.

[79] The Mares wore plaited native helmets on their heads, and carried small shields of animal skin and javelins. The Colchians wore wooden helmets on their heads, carried small shields of untreated oxhide and short spears, and were armed with knives as well. Pharandates the son of Teäspis was in command of the Mares and the Colchians.

The Alarodian and Saspeiran troops were equipped like the Colchians, and commanded by Masistius the son of Siromitres.

[80] The tribes who had come from the islands in the Red Sea to take part in the expedition—the islands where the Persian king settles the people known as ‘the Dispossessed’—closely resembled the Medes in respect of both clothing and weaponry. These islanders were commanded by Mardontes the son of Bagaeus, who was one of the Persian commanders a year later at the battle of Mycale, where he died.

[81] These were the tribes and peoples who marched by land and were organized into infantry contingents. I have already given the names of the commanders of this division, whose job it was also to organize and count the troops, and to appoint officers to take charge of the brigades of 10,000 and the battalions of 1,000; the leaders of the companies of 100 and the sections of 10 were appointed by the brigade-commanders. There were also other officers in command of the various regiments and tribal units. Anyway, the commanding officers were as stated.

Edit:

I add this section from a book, dedicated to the military of the Achaemenid empire:

Achaemenid_military.pdf

 

 

Edited June 23, 2022 by Genava55

[AIEND]

If we want the Persian faction to have more professional melee infantry, adding Assyrian infantry is a good choice.

[Genava55]

 

 

[AIEND]

14 分钟前，Genava55 说：

 

 

It may also be the helmets worn by the Assyrians or some other peoples. The Persians and the Medes were archers, and their habit of wearing breastplates without helmets now seems strange.

[Genava55]

5 minutes ago, AIEND said:

It may also be the helmets worn by the Assyrians or some other peoples.

Except that the Assyrians weren't mentioned at Marathon.

[Lion.Kanzen]

I don't know how much influence the Persians had from Urartu.

https://www.worldhistory.org/image/9546/pointed-bronze-helmet-from-urartu/

The territories the Urartu kingdom had once occupied were ultimately taken over by the Medes from c. 585 BCE onwards and then incorporated into the Achaemenian Empire of Cyrus the Great in the mid-6th century BCE. 

Hurrians have that kind of helmets.

 

 

[borg-]

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4724

I think that's enough for now. The intention is just to start differentiating in all civilizations, so that it can be deepened in the next patches.

[LetswaveaBook]

On 24/06/2022 at 1:19 AM, borg- said:

I think that's enough for now. The intention is just to start differentiating in all civilizations, so that it can be deepened in the next patches.

It is nice to see a patch that creates an unique identity for Persians.

However what about Persian Architecture? Is it supposed to be as useless as in A25?

[borg-]

I thought of some solution like being able to increase the limit of wonder to 2, or else being able to build cc in phase 1 after researched, or increase the limit of ice house or apadama, but I don't think that's possible at the moment.

[Stan`]

27 minutes ago, borg- said:

I thought of some solution like being able to increase the limit of wonder to 2, or else being able to build cc in phase 1 after researched, or increase the limit of ice house or apadama, but I don't think that's possible at the moment.

@Freagarach

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Here is a design question concerning axe cav, which has not been changed yet:

Should this unit be a mobile siege unit, sort of like cavalry clubmen (increase crush damage)?

or a more of a multi-purpose raiding unit? (https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4674 or https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4683)

Edited June 26, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[chrstgtr]

3 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Should this unit be a mobile siege unit, sort of like cavalry clubmen (increase crush damage)?

Sounds like fun

[Freagarach]

On 25/06/2022 at 10:33 PM, borg- said:

I thought of some solution like being able to increase the limit of wonder to 2, or else being able to build cc in phase 1 after researched, or increase the limit of ice house or apadama, but I don't think that's possible at the moment.

Kind of planned.

If I read this correctly you want to have techs affect EntityLimits? Two exactly the same wonders doesn't sound nice by the way.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

56 minutes ago, Freagarach said:

Two exactly the same wonders doesn't sound nice by the way.

I was thinking this could be a feature for the Ptolemies. Choose either the Temple of Edfu or the Lighthouse of Alexandria. 

[alre]

we have the model for the alicarnassus mausoleum somewhere in the forum, but that's not really persian, neither it is the current wonder, which depicts the hanging gardens of babylon. by the way, how was persian architecture excellent actually?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

3 minutes ago, alre said:

we have the model for the alicarnassus mausoleum somewhere in the forum, but that's not really persian, neither it is the current wonder, which depicts the hanging gardens of babylon. by the way, how was persian architecture excellent actually?

The consensus is to change the Persian wonder to the Throne Hall of Darius (the "Apadana"). We'd change the current "Apadana" structure to the "Tachara" (Winter Palace). We can then use the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, et al. for a new Capture the Wonder game type.