Train time and rotation time mod.

[Lion.Kanzen]

And introduce militias?  more civilian than soldiers.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

43 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

And introduce militias?  more civilian than soldiers.

Citizen-soldiers are by definition militias.  The gather penalty is not necessarily the only option; having troops trained at an advanced rank (and costing more resources/having a longer training as a result) would have a similar effect.

[Lion.Kanzen]

10 minutes ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Citizen-soldiers are by definition militias.  

game wise ... not historically. You know what I mean something less prepared than a hoplite.

[chrstgtr]

2 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

The problem with changing training times is that it does nothing to fix the fundamental issue.  Barracks serve a primarily economic role in the Village Phase.  Some people might not consider that a problem, but to me, the average Athenian just getting equipped to serve for the military doesn't say to himself, "Whelp, better start hoeing those fields."  

Introducing a gather-rate penalty of some sort to units trained in the barracks would generally fix this problem.  Suddenly booming would otherwise be done by researching fertility festival and training women or going with a suboptimal investment that would leave the player better protected at the cost of efficiency.  And there you go.  Booming would not be turtling.

This is another solution to a different "problem" that we don't know will work. Reverting to old train times will work to fix the problems that were introduced in a24. What you propose is a larger change to the whole meta, which is fine to propose but an entirely different topic. Any larger changes to the meta should be made from a point that already know works (i.e., a23 training time) and merits of your proposal should be considered within that context. 

[chrstgtr]

Just providing feedback on the mod itself--I played a couple games on the mod and I am a huge fan. Game is much, much more balanced, and a lot of fun. A lot of the strategies that disappeared in a24 like rushing are possible. 

 

I encourage everyone to give it a try. 

[Stan`]

Interesting so the turn rate went from 8 to 14 (a realistic (likely unplayable competitively) value would be 6 (half turn in less than a second)

• See also https://code.wildfiregames.com/D3528
• https://code.wildfiregames.com/D3274
• and the discussion here https://code.wildfiregames.com/rP24415#46454
• and finally one https://code.wildfiregames.com/D2837

 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

Hmm, I downloaded the original version of this mod a while ago, and installed it successfully. I tried to install the newest version, but now I seem to be unable to uninstall any mods or install any new ones. I tried what worked earlier, just re-compressing just the .json file for the new mod and installing it by "opening with 0ad". Earlier I had heard that you need to delete old versions before installing new ones, so I deleted all the mod related files I could find. To my dismay, I was unable to alter the mod situation in my 0ad. I went to the 0ad contents folder and found data>mods>mod.zip and there was nothing else there.

I admit that I have been basically guessing at what to do at this point. Is there a specific procedure to install this mod on Mac OS? 

Also has the mod affected archers being OP in 4v4s, or has this mod been found to have no effects on that?

Solution: ok, so my brother "RKTROB" tried using the terminal to manually delete the old mod versions which finally cleared the mod downloads. Then he used the terminal again to import the whole uncompressed folder into the mod directory and this worked. 

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[Loki1950]

Don't you just hate terminal geeks sometimes

Enjoy the Choice

[alre]

We had a couple of games yesterday with this mod (4v4, couldn't believe so many people were ready to try it), and here's my personal 2 cents:

• welcome back to old training times!
• strenght of fortifications is not being altered by this mod, but probably that's the most due change to come in a25, that is something worth a test
• if you remember what I've being writing in this forum lately, it will come to no surprise, but I'm not a fan of differentiating ranged speed again: archers feel goofy and slow, and archer rush is much weaker and slower. Having played half a game (crash? ddos?) as ptole bordering to maurya, I can assure archers are still strong defensively, slowing them down affects their offensive potential more than their defensive one (I played persia the previous match, and I had to move my soldiers very little, still dealing much damage)
• turning times feel fine. In a game were archers shoot one arrow per second, and foot soldiers cover the distance of a bow shot in just some seconds, it doesn't feel unrealistic or unnatural to have people turning around in almost no time.

Edited May 29, 2021 by alre

[alre]

Also, skirmishers being faster, they can chase archers, but if archers are close enough to a defensive position (and they are, because they are slow and you don't want to expose them too much), archers still beat skirms easy, and can still kite them to some extent (if the map is dense enough, kiting is just as possible as without the mod).

Skirmishers weren't good fighters in a23, aren't now in a24, and still aren't with this mod.

[wraitii]

@ValihrAntcould you make a diff with the training times? I think we're missing that on Phabricator and A25 will be closing soon.

Should we merge the 'remove root from fortress' patch as well, in your opinion?

[chrstgtr]

22 hours ago, alre said:

• if you remember what I've being writing in this forum lately, it will come to no surprise, but I'm not a fan of differentiating ranged speed again: archers feel goofy and slow, and archer rush is much weaker and slower. Having played half a game (crash? ddos?) as ptole bordering to maurya, I can assure archers are still strong defensively, slowing them down affects their offensive potential more than their defensive one (I played persia the previous match, and I had to move my soldiers very little, still dealing much damage)

If all range units move at the same speed then archers will always win with good micro. It will be the same as camels in a23

[ValihrAnt]

Quote

• if you remember what I've being writing in this forum lately, it will come to no surprise, but I'm not a fan of differentiating ranged speed again: archers feel goofy and slow, and archer rush is much weaker and slower. Having played half a game (crash? ddos?) as ptole bordering to maurya, I can assure archers are still strong defensively, slowing them down affects their offensive potential more than their defensive one (I played persia the previous match, and I had to move my soldiers very little, still dealing much damage)
• turning times feel fine. In a game were archers shoot one arrow per second, and foot soldiers cover the distance of a bow shot in just some seconds, it doesn't feel unrealistic or unnatural to have people turning around in almost no time.

Not differentiating ranged unit speeds but lowering rotation times will make archers absurdly strong. Same thing as camels archers were in a23. It is impossible to balance units in such a way that they're equal economically (which was the goal of making all move speeds equal) and militarily.

The goal of lowering archer move speed wasn't to make them worse defensively but to make them counterable and not invulnerable to other ranged infantry. Yes, it does make archer rush weaker and it should. It should be possible for the defending player to punish the other for overextending by using skirmishers or slingers. The archer player still has the early edge, they simply need to now put in some thought in how they position their units to not be cut off when the other player masses enough units to fight back.

On 29/05/2021 at 12:33 PM, alre said:

Also, skirmishers being faster, they can chase archers, but if archers are close enough to a defensive position (and they are, because they are slow and you don't want to expose them too much), archers still beat skirms easy, and can still kite them to some extent (if the map is dense enough, kiting is just as possible as without the mod).

Skirmishers weren't good fighters in a23, aren't now in a24, and still aren't with this mod.

If you only sit next to a defensive position you completely give up map control. It is an advantage that a lot of players don't know how to utilise. In regards to skirmisher strength, I really don't see why they're not good fighters. They don't get the early range advantage like the archers but when they make up the ground they're strong enough and with the movement speed difference they will now be able to punish if the archer player misjudges a fight. It won't be only archers that can punish the other player retreating.

[Yekaterina]

@ValihrAnt Would you mind publishing your mod onto github? Thanks. 

[Yekaterina]

RotationTrainTimes.zip

This version adds faster swordsmen.