Addition of Han Chinese to 0AD

[Genava55]

I think it should be planned in a roadmap. Including them in A25 could cause a delay of its release, taking again very long to finish it. Probably it is better to include them for A26.

[Yekaterina]

To be entirely honest I think those anachronisms are not a very big problem. First of all we must know that Han army was not very uniform because it has absorbed many other cultures, so it is perfectly acceptable to have a few odd features. The building style from later dynasties are not exactly destroying the authenticity of the civ.

Most importantly, the majority of players won't care that much about such minor details in the heat of a battle / competitive match. Being able to distinguish units apart is more important. 

About no distinctive colours... we could make each unit hold a flag representing the player colour? The Han army did love their flags.

[Yekaterina]

  On 21/04/2021 at 3:26 PM, Genava55 said:

I think it should be planned in a roadmap. Including them in A25 could cause a delay of its release, taking again very long to finish it. Probably it is better to include them for A26.

Expand  

I think that is fair. But it really depends on how long A24 can exist. Looking at the history of 0AD it seems that A23 is particularly long-lived whereas some other alphas only lasted for a few months. 

[Lopess]

  On 21/04/2021 at 3:26 PM, Genava55 said:

I think it should be planned in a roadmap. Including them in A25 could cause a delay of its release, taking again very long to finish it. Probably it is better to include them for A26.

Expand  

 As I see it, it is a very long time to add a ready-made civ to the main game. However, I understand that sometimes things added to the main game take a long time to be discussed and implemented.

[Stan`]

  On 21/04/2021 at 3:26 PM, Genava55 said:

I think it should be planned in a roadmap. Including them in A25 could cause a delay of its release, taking again very long to finish it. Probably it is better to include them for A26.

Expand  

It won't delay things because that's the art department mostly if the balancing is somewhat okay.

[Genava55]

  On 21/04/2021 at 4:15 PM, Stan` said:

It won't delay things because that's the art department mostly if the balancing is somewhat okay.

Expand  

How much is available the art department? Personally I think that it is better to split the two development in parallels. Doing the art development apart while the others are working on the development of A25 (which concerns a lot of questions about balancing and differentiating I think) then when A25 is ready, starting the implementation and dedicating A26 especially for the implementation of this new civ.

Edited April 21, 2021 by Genava55

[Stan`]

  On 21/04/2021 at 4:45 PM, Genava55 said:

How much is available the art department?

Expand  

There is... me.

  Reveal hidden contents

Personally I think that it is better to split the two development in parallels. Doing the art development apart while the others are working on the development of A25 (which concerns a lot of questions about balancing and differentiating I think) then when A25 is ready, starting the implementation and dedicating A26 especially for the implementation of this new civ.

That assumes we have the resources to make it perfect, which we don't.

[Lion.Kanzen]

  On 21/04/2021 at 5:00 PM, Stan` said:

There is... me.

  Reveal hidden contents

Personally I think that it is better to split the two development in parallels. Doing the art development apart while the others are working on the development of A25 (which concerns a lot of questions about balancing and differentiating I think) then when A25 is ready, starting the implementation and dedicating A26 especially for the implementation of this new civ.

That assumes we have the resources to make it perfect, which we don't.

Expand  

Alexander will be available soon

[Lopess]

With Stan available I believe in adding two civs per alpha for 6 months.

[LetswaveaBook]

I tried the mod and the most interesting thing I wanted to try out is massing ministers. The mod does currently not increase the price of ministers, but I won´t judge it for that as it is no design flaw but an implication flaw. Some observation about ministers:

0. There idea needs some more detail.

0.1 The stats are off, you get those much reward for low investments.

0.2 The costs do not increase per minister.

1. The multiplicative effect is really strong.

1.1 10 ministers increase productivity by a factor 1.1¹⁰=2.6. So if the ministers support 30 workers, the combined effectiveness will be like 78 workers(Ignoring walking distances). This makes a population of 50 do work similar to 78 workers, freeing up 28 population space.

1.2 10 ministers make p3 very cheap as well and quick to research as monastery technologies.

1.3 a group of 20 ministers allow to build forward CCs very quick,

2. The cost increasing idea could give problems

2.1 If you batch train ministers, the game needs to know that the second minister should cost more than the 1st. So a batch of 10 should not be 10 times the cost of 1 minister. Same problem would arise if you train the from multiple government centers.

 

Also please do not add crossbow cavalry and sword cavalry to the game.

Crossbows require a lot of power to load and you would use all the muscles in your body load it, including those in your legs. By the way, you generate way more power with your legs than your arms. On horseback you cannot effectively use the muscles in your legs to aid to loading the crossbows. In addition there are other factors that make reloading a crossbow on a horse very impractical. Mounted crossbowmen(that dismount to reload) are fine to me, but cavalry crossbows are historically inaccurate.

If you are able to afford a horse and a sword, you would also have the wealth to either afford a spear or some javelins. Since the spear is cheaper and more effective than the sword on mounted combat, cavalry always preferred the spear as their main weapon. I would say that cavalry with the sword as their main weapon would be historically inaccurate.

 

[Stan`]

  On 21/04/2021 at 5:45 PM, LetswaveaBook said:

If you are able to afford a horse and a sword, you would also have the wealth to either afford a spear or some javelins. Since the spear is cheaper and more effective than the sword on mounted combat, cavalry always preferred the spear as their main weapon. I would say that cavalry with the sword as their main weapon would be historically inaccurate.

Expand  

China was the first to mass produce things so in theory they could have had such cavalry.

  On 21/04/2021 at 5:45 PM, LetswaveaBook said:

Crossbows require a lot of power to load and you would use all the muscles in your body load it, including those in your legs. By the way, you generate way more power with your legs than your arms. On horseback you cannot effectively use the muscles in your legs to aid to loading the crossbows. In addition there are other factors that make reloading a crossbow on a horse very impractical. Mounted crossbowmen(that dismount to reload) are fine to me, but cavalry crossbows are historically inaccurate.

Expand  

Not the chinese variants which are the precursor, and are really different from say the gastaphrete.

 

Feel free to suggest stats change for the ministers / make a PR.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

  On 21/04/2021 at 6:07 PM, Stan` said:

China was the first to mass produce things so in theory they could have had such cavalry.

Expand  

In theory that is possible.  The problem is that spears are generally always preferred to swords in most situations due to better reach; the advantage of the sword was its utility as a side-arm, not as a main weapon.  The idea of troops using the sword alone is generally a pure fantasy idea (with a few exceptions).

[Yekaterina]

  On 21/04/2021 at 5:45 PM, LetswaveaBook said:

If you are able to afford a horse and a sword, you would also have the wealth to either afford a spear or some javelins. Since the spear is cheaper and more effective than the sword on mounted combat, cavalry always preferred the spear as their main weapon. I would say that cavalry with the sword as their main weapon would be historically inaccurate.

Expand  

I am afraid it is not that simple. In literary works the more elite cavalry soldiers have a weapon that was a mixture of axe and spear: a very long spear that has a sharp tip but also an axe blade attacked near the tip, so it can both stab and chop. Sometimes wealthier recruits have their own specially crafted weapons that best suited them personally. However for laymen they used regular spears or double headed spears. 

The crossbow cavalry would have used small crossbows. There were semi-automatic designs as well as weapons that shoot 4 projectiles at the same time (rifle vs shotgun). They were not much stronger than a regular bow but had lethal accuracy and range, like a modern gun. 

[Lion.Kanzen]

 

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

  On 21/04/2021 at 8:32 AM, Stan` said:

No and honestly unless you find someone to fix them I don't think they will.

@wowgetoffyourcellphone ?

 

Expand  

The portraits are something I can definitely do for you.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

  On 21/04/2021 at 10:59 AM, Nescio said:

I meant art improvements, some examples I've requested more than once on these forums in the past. Britons and Gauls shouldn't have a donkey trader, Athenians and Spartans should. The SQPR ought to be removed from Roman wall textures. The Roman civic centre needs to be replaced. Macedonian dock. Wall towers.

Expand  

I propose we take those civs out of A25 or until they can be fixed!

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Current unit roster in the mod:

 

Support

Female Citizen

• Nǚ

Healer

• Rú

Trader

• Shāng Rén

Government Minister

• Zhèngfǔ Bùzhǎng

 

Infantry

Spearman

• Cháng Máo Bīng

Swordsman

• Dāo Fú Shǒu

Archer

• Gōng Shǒu

Crossbowman

• Nǔ Shǒu

 

Cavalry

Spearman

• Tú Qí

Swordsman

• Qīng Qí

Archer

• Gōng Qí

 

Champions

Infantry Swordsman

• Hu Ben

Infantry Archer

• Hu Ben

Cavalry Spearman

•  

Cavalry Crossbowman

• Nǔ Qí

 

Heroes

Han Xin

Liu Bang

Wei Qing

 

Siege

Stone Thrower

• Mangonel

Bolt Shooter

• Shoushe Nǔ
• Does not need to pack or unpack

Siege Tower

• Lin Chong Lu Gong Che

 

Ships

Fishing Boat

• Yú Pái

Merchant Ship

• Shāng Chuán

Light Warship

• Zhuàng Chuán

Medium Warship

• Lóu Chuán

Heavy Warship

• Dà Lóu Chuán
• Trains
  • Infantry Swordsman
  • Infantry Archer

Fireship

• Chì Chuán

 

[Nescio]

One thing people love is 0 A.D.'s attention to detail and historical accuracy.

Including the Han into A24 was discussed some time ago. It didn't happen. To the best of my knowledge, none of the issues of the Han mod has been solved since. I fail to see why it's suddenly good enough to be included right now.

Again, I'd love to see the Han included in game, if possible in A25, and no, not everything has to be perfect. Nevertheless, the most glaring flaws should be addressed first.

[Stan`]

Here is an improved version of the first post, with better icons by me and @wowgetoffyourcellphone

han_china.pyromodFetching info...

Nerfed heavily the minister from 10% to 2%

I think I can live with being able to batch all minister at once giving you a bonus.

  On 22/04/2021 at 8:08 AM, Nescio said:

One thing people love is 0 A.D.'s attention to detail and historical accuracy.

Expand  

Nobody is contesting that.

  On 22/04/2021 at 8:08 AM, Nescio said:

Including the Han into A24 was discussed some time ago. It didn't happen. To the best of my knowledge, none of the issues of the Han mod has been solved since. I fail to see why it's suddenly good enough to be included right now.

Expand  

Initially it didn't happen because it was the best quality mod we had around. Now that there are plenty other mods it's no longer.  Else it would have been included long ago.

 

"None" is a plain lie. I've fixed a lot of issues reported by @wolflance and @Ayakashi over the years. Not all sure. I've also fixed some minor things like the market's well. But I've been busy doing everything else.

  On 22/04/2021 at 8:08 AM, Nescio said:

Again, I'd love to see the Han included in game, if possible in A25, and no, not everything has to be perfect. Nevertheless, the most glaring flaws should be addressed first.

Expand  

Why can't that be part of not perfect?

[hyperion]

  On 21/04/2021 at 5:00 PM, Stan` said:

That assumes we have the resources to make it perfect, which we don't.

Expand  

Even if you had plenty of resources it won't be perfect and there is no need for it to be either.

If Han is eligible to be added in principle, then just go for it.

[Yekaterina]

  On 22/04/2021 at 8:40 AM, Stan` said:

Nerfed heavily the minister from 10% to 2%

Expand  

2% is a bit too underpowered... Let's go for a median of 6%?

But again we should ask the balancing advisors for these values. 

[Yekaterina]

Where are our balancing advisors?!

[Lion.Kanzen]

Thank you to @Kimball and his team.

They create the base mod.

 

[Stan`]

And they will be credited. Although most of them are already in the credits.

[Lion.Kanzen]

  On 22/04/2021 at 1:39 PM, Stan` said:

And they will be credited. Although most of them are already in the credits.

Expand  

Of course, but I want them to remember him and for him to know it, he was also part of the WFG team. He inspired us all.