profanity

[Stan`]

6 minutes ago, sil-vous-plait said:

this was basically the gist of the reasoning behind this thread: I think the game/community would benefit from some increased ability to maintain the multiplayer games + lobby in this way, where as the current method of some elementary level bad words being singled out for automatic muting isn't really covering these sorts of scenarios. most of it seems like such an easy thing to implement, and while I honestly have not been around for anywhere near the lifespan of this game I'm surprised it's only being looked at in its 25th iteration?

Multiplayer was really wonky before elexis fixed the out of sync, and there was, and still is a lot of work to do on the engine itself  which is what most people tend to want to do and have the knowledge about.

I think mods are always a good reflection of what people want for the game. It's a broken one though, because it's usually one individual, but the motivation and time they invest in and the spread of the mod compensate for this. Those are features that I could definitely see in those mods, as they tend to compensate for the small gui evolution over the years.

19 minutes ago, sil-vous-plait said:

apologies for double post, but @Stan` is this the sort of thing that would best be addressed by submitting a proposal to https://code.wildfiregames.com? for example: allow players a personal "mute" list, or implement community-elected moderators for online lobby, etc, etc? just remembering some takeaways from other A23 vs. A24 threads and recalling that this is a possible mechanism

Well if you have an actual working patch for it, then yes, if not no, this place is only made for code proposals.

[Silier]

27 minutes ago, sil-vous-plait said:

or implement community-elected moderators for online lobby, etc, etc?

If someone has time, willingness to moderate the lobby, I think one can apply for that position, that said I dont know who is authorised to decide if one passes the criteria and grand privileges.

[nani]

1 hour ago, sil-vous-plait said:

for example: allow players a personal "mute"

If you want this you can already get it with the autociv mod

[sil-vous-plait]

at the end of the day my question is still: is this not a concern of WFG? if so what plans are there to address it? I do agree with what's said via mods etc etc but it still strikes me as odd that this is getting treated as something extra, as if it's not a foundational concern of the game/multiplayer experience

[Lion.Kanzen]

23 minutes ago, sil-vous-plait said:

at the end of the day my question is still: is this not a concern of WFG? if so what plans are there to address it? I do agree with what's said via mods etc etc but it still strikes me as odd that this is getting treated as something extra, as if it's not a foundational concern of the game/multiplayer experience

I think we can open a ticket.

@Angen

[wraitii]

4 hours ago, sil-vous-plait said:

at the end of the day my question is still: is this not a concern of WFG? if so what plans are there to address it? I do agree with what's said via mods etc etc but it still strikes me as odd that this is getting treated as something extra, as if it's not a foundational concern of the game/multiplayer experience

[Usual disclaimer that 'WFG' is not a thing and this is just a bunch of people giving some of their free time]

We don't have particular plans to address this, mostly because the people currently active are mostly devs who work on other things.

That being said, we are stretched rather thin in terms of lobby moderators. It would make sense to have more, but as usual things aren't so simple, because giving moderator power to people implies trusting them, which implies knowing them somewhat.

[smgzlez]

 

3 hours ago, wraitii said:

[Usual disclaimer that 'WFG' is not a thing and this is just a bunch of people giving some of their free time]

We don't have particular plans to address this, mostly because the people currently active are mostly devs who work on other things.

That being said, we are stretched rather thin in terms of lobby moderators. It would make sense to have more, but as usual things aren't so simple, because giving moderator power to people implies trusting them, which implies knowing them somewhat.

Volunteer moderators could propose themselves and their work could be reviewed anyway. I understand that those of you who are in charge of developing the game in its different aspects are already too busy and can't take care of that too, but there are many veteran players and also more novice players who might find this task interesting and would be willing to do it. It's scary to trust people you don't know, but it's also important to give people a vote of confidence because you might discover people who can be an asset in other ways. 

So my idea is that volunteers could come forward and just as there is a forum for other types of complaints, such as the abandonment of ranked 1 vs 1 games, those who have a problem with a moderator could report it in a section of the forum to evaluate whether that moderator has done things right or wrong. Also, I would create a topic to discuss about some previous guidelines to give to all those who apply for moderator. This way it could be discussed what the community finds really important to control and the moderators would not start from scratch. The part that is "within their freedom" could be regulated through the reports I mentioned.

Edited May 12, 2021 by smgzlez

[Yekaterina]

We can open two offense reporting threads:

The first one reports foul play and misbehaving players in games (e.g. smurf, quitting rated games, cheating)

The second one reports any offensive / abusive language. 

[Stan`]

@user1 is the only one that can grant such privileges, so you'll have to take the fight to them.

[Dakara]

1 hour ago, Yekaterina said:

We can open two offense reporting threads:

The first one reports foul play and misbehaving players in games (e.g. smurf, quitting rated games, cheating)

The second one reports any offensive / abusive language. 

i understand the idea but /mute with nani mod is ok 

[sil-vous-plait]

too busy to prevent the use of racial slurs in usernames, ok gotcha

[Lion.Kanzen]

12 minutes ago, sil-vous-plait said:

too busy to prevent the use of racial slurs in usernames, ok gotcha

Yes. Idea for a volunteer?

 

Look, I'm Hispanic and I'm not offending for nonsense.

 

You have to learn to ignore people on this internet.

 

 I am more offended by sexual vulgarity than other racial insults.

 

 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@sil-vous-plait

I understand how frustrating it is too see such profanity beyond any semblance of “dark humor”. But please understand that it is a challenging and controversial problem that is present in all sorts of games even at the highest level of development funding. 
I give Call of Duty as an example, I know the level of toxicity in Call of Duty multiplayer is unparalleled, and that it is maybe surprising to see this in a smaller game that otherwise has a very wholesome community. 
 

The online multiplayers of any game is the safe haven of trolls and white supremacists, It is tiresome to be around them. Just call them out when it makes sense and otherwise don’t let it ruin your fun in multiplayer.

[Lion.Kanzen]

44 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

white supremacists

The problem is to continue with this of only blaming one faction.

 

If they happen to tell all whites that they don't support certain supremacist views, and calling whites supremacists...all day in all the media, similar to feminism call all men "Potential rapists", what do you think is going on?

 

They become what they are told so much not to do.

 

Young people are rebellious. Imposing political correctness only forces people to react radically.

if you are going to try to destroy the Nazi groups stop attacking them, the more they grow, even I would be treated as a Nazi for having a conservative position.

 

What do you make the Nazis more famous for?

 

I am completely against National Socialism.

 

But it did not pass as the hypocritical media condemning, at one point, far from the horrors of WW2, Are they going to say, why did they hate Hitler?

 

This is how these movements grow.

 

I know many people who worship Hitler in Latin America.

 

They always say that, they believe that if the media says something, you should think backwards.

 

Those insults give them more power, if you censor them, more power ... they attract more young boys.

 

With the people that I debate the most are with the Neo pagans.

With horror I tell them that they grow more and more.

 

The more we silence them, the more strength they are given.

 

Then there is the paradox of tolerance ...

[skeletonzombie]

Why don't we replace all problematic words with other words?

Like plants and fruits?

The replaced words could be colored in yellow or purple, to make this filter visible.

Example:

nazi -> banana

supremacist -> oak

@#$% -> palmtree

etc

To make this language neutral, words from the old languages could be used.

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by skeletonzombie
typo

[Lion.Kanzen]

10 minutes ago, skeletonzombie said:

Why don't we replace all problematic words with other words?

Like plants and fruits?

The replaced words could be colored in yellow or purple, to make this filter visible.

Example:

nazi -> banana

supremacist -> oak

@#$% -> palmtree

etc

To make this language neutral, words from the old languages could be used.

 

and that is not what western politicians spend doing.

 

Woman= gestant person (?)

[skeletonzombie]

2 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Woman= gestant person (?)

I mean words that really mean nothing.

Just to make problematic words invisible.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

En AoE DE You couldn't even write black in Spanish.

 

Because is color "negro".

https://steamcommunity.com/app/813780/discussions/0/3554966164232562920/

 

 

 

https://forums.ageofempires.com/t/extreme-language-filter-censor/71154/22

[Lion.Kanzen]

7 minutes ago, skeletonzombie said:

I mean words that really mean nothing.

Just to make problematic words invisible.

 

Negro is one of these words?

[skeletonzombie]

xxx-ing out a whole phrase is definitely inacceptable.

That's why I recommend to replace individual words only.

If the map is one-to-one, one can still understand it, assuming one knows the list of mappings.

----

I see the problem with the normal words,

and that is very annoying,

but the phrases used at times are gross and should be censored. They have no value anyway.

The primary focus of the lobby is playing, and not political discussions.

----

Maybe censor only the verbs?

"I hate negros" -> "I (palmtree) negros"

The insulting nature of a single word is much less than a whole sentence.

Otherwise I don't see how such filtering could be automatized, yet the lack of personal makes this necessary.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

11 minutes ago, skeletonzombie said:

xxx-ing out a whole phrase is definitely inacceptable.

That's why I recommend to replace individual words only.

If the map is one-to-one, one can still understand it, assuming one knows the list of mappings.

----

I see the problem with the normal words,

and that is very annoying,

but the phrases used at times are gross and should be censored. They have no value anyway.

The primary focus of the lobby is playing, and not political discussions.

----

Maybe censor only the verbs?

"I hate negros" -> "I (palmtree) negros"

The insulting nature of a single word is much less than a whole sentence.

Otherwise I don't see how such filtering could be automatized, yet the lack of personal makes this necessary.

 

human beings always find ways to skip words.

 

The best thing would be to turn off the chat and / or as mobile games say, put pre-defined phrases to communicate, AoE already had something like that with the Taunts.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@Lion.Kanzen

I totally see what you mean about whether to attack them or ignore them. I generally prefer to ignore them, but I would say there are times when ignoring them grows them and times when ignoring them weakens them. It gets harder when they are legitimized by heads of state, it emboldens them.

I used the words white supremacists because it is the most common kind of extremism where I live. Also, is common for them to go to multiplayer lobbies for recruitment: to stoke arguments amongst otherwise quiet or non-extreme people in hopes getting some agreement to expand their online hate group societies. People who commit mass shootings and terror acts can often be seen to have formed a motive from these online platforms.

I just hope that the community can agree on some solution for 0ad.

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[hyperion]

13 hours ago, sil-vous-plait said:

yeah even a blocking feature would maybe be better than arriving at a blacklist of words, although I think without too much debate there is a small list of words (which frequently appear as usernames and/or in the lobby chat) that could easily be blocked. anyone opposed to that is either sympathetic or fronting for something (if only wanting to be edgy)

A blacklist is fine as long as it's from an authoritative source, like a government recommendation or a media company like bbc's to *beep* list. Then there are no discussions as to what should be on the list or not. Such a black list like any other won't solve the issue but shows attitude.

 

On 11/05/2021 at 3:48 AM, sil-vous-plait said:

maybe give the ability of a few trusted players to mute for this stuff/kick people

Finding "trusted" and motivated people is very hard. Even if you have a couple such people to agree and enforce a consistent policy is tough due to different backgrounds and a huge grey area. This is a common problem and it's far from only wfg not being able to solve it for good. That it's probably out of reach to police it server-side doesn't mean there can't be client side tools like an ignore list.

 

Both a blacklist with external source(s) and an /ignore <nick> chat command are one-time efforts to implement and I consider them suitable for wfg.

[Yekaterina]

Toxicity is difficult to control. Even if you ban the use of swear words, the smart people can find alternative ways to upset you. When it comes to dealing with humanity just some clever computer code will never solve the problem completely; one can always paraphrase and even invent new phases to insult. We can only remove the incentive for people to be rude. 

People like Melusines whose 'profession' is to insult are rare, just report them to the lobby supervisor and ban them. I have only seen one or two during my entire experience with 0AD. 

Other people insult when they are enraged. This could be caused foul play of another player or frustration over other issues. This often won't last long. 

So either ban or ignore. If these people are ignored they will realise that spamming profanity doesn't work and they will become bored. 

 

[Yekaterina]

In comparison 0AD is already much better in this respect compared to other games. 

I am sure all CSGO players are aware of Suka Blyat (excuse me). CSGO players shout it out without feeling any need to control their rudeness, but most other players don't take them seriously.