Forests and Farmlands, a new idea

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

So, DE has a feature called Groves, which are collections of trees which are 1 large selectable and gatherable object. There's a few interesting things you can do with this, like make an "underbrush" aura which makes units move slower through them, have less accuracy while shooting in them, etc. Also, as one selectable object you have fewer things to keep track of and also conceptually they make sense in that forests were valuable sources of resources, not just individual trees. There are still individual trees (stragglers), but they aren't the sole source or primary source of wood, the groves are your primary source of wood.

Now, also in DE you can build Storehouses and Farmsteads outside your territory. This creates a soft concept of "weak countryside; strong city", where a lot of raiding happens outside of the home territories of the players.

But instead of suggesting EA adopt DE's features, I've come up with something specifically unique that the core game could adopt. It takes the DE concepts and pushes them forward a bit.

So, imagine the map has these Forests and Farmland areas. Forests would be a collection of large wood-bearing objects similar to DE's groves with a Gaia Lumber Camp nearby, while Farmlands would be large open areas of furrowed land terrain with a Gaia Farmstead nearby or centralized to it. The basic game still doesn't let you build Storehouses or Farmsteads (I would rename the player-built object to Granary to distinguish) outside your territory, but it does let you capture these Lumber Camps and Farmsteads which are outside your territory. (the overall concept is similar to the capturing Stone Quarries and Metal Mines idea, which are resource bearing objects outside your home territory). So, instead of the old "slotting" concept, you just capture these Lumber Camps and Farmsteads which are already there.

Forests become "renewable" sources of wood (it regenerates wood over time if not reduced to 0), but slower to gather than individual straggler trees (which don't renew) that you find inside your home territory. You can still build farms in your home territory, but those on the Farmlands are much more productive. 

 

Lumber Camp mockup:

Capture the Lumber Camp dropsite (Yellow) and now you can gather wood outside your territory.

Forests are made up of Groves (Red-cartouche footprint; Blue-circle footprint) and can be depleted, but they regenerate wood over time, faster if left alone. Groves have other attributes, such as they can be "garrisoned" by some civs' soldiers for an ambush effect, and they also have auras that cause units to have lower vision and movement speeds within their footprints. 

Straggler Trees (Green) are gatherable, but do not regenerate and can be built over by player structures (the tree disappears).

Edited December 24, 2020 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[badosu]

I like the original DE concept better, farmstead and storehouses outside of territory does not seem bad. Having territory allows you to protect it better, so it's still encouraged for taking map control. At the same time allows for players using heavy mineral dependent civilizations to not be too far behind if the map gen is not generous, encourages players to constantly scout or make outposts on resource dense spots which is a plus in my opinion.

Capturing a stray farmstead or storehouse could make some sense but it feel out of place in my opinion.

Farmlands + forests would be awesome

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

9 hours ago, badosu said:

I like the original DE concept better, farmstead and storehouses outside of territory does not seem bad. Having territory allows you to protect it better, so it's still encouraged for taking map control. At the same time allows for players using heavy mineral dependent civilizations to not be too far behind if the map gen is not generous, encourages players to constantly scout or make outposts on resource dense spots which is a plus in my opinion.

Capturing a stray farmstead or storehouse could make some sense but it feel out of place in my opinion.

Farmlands + forests would be awesome

Well, the lumber camps and farmsteads you capture would take a little bigger footprint and be more eyecandyish and detailed. But yeah, I like DEs method but I was trying to find something slightly different for EA.

[badosu]

8 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Well, the lumber camps and farmsteads you capture would take a little bigger footprint and be more eyecandyish and detailed. But yeah, I like DEs method but I was trying to find something slightly different for EA.

I like the concept, would enable a gameplay of 'bases', a mechanic I miss when designing maps for 0ad. Currently extra minerals barely hit the spot but not really, they are just not essential for most factions (which could change in a24 with champs rework).

Farmlands + forests perhaps could do that, do you think it's possible to add a map script to replicate that? (I think DE has farmlands right, I could look at the source)

I would be up trying to come up with a map introducing this dynamic to EA.

Edited September 10, 2020 by badosu

[happyconcepts]

Wow I like your thinking on this. Less micro to gather too. 

What is EA a new mod?

[badosu]

EA == vanilla == a23 == normal 0ad

edit: forgot the most important, Empires Ascendant lel

Edited October 13, 2020 by badosu

[Auron24015]

If we were to have these "groves", forest groves would be able to have invisible units in them so they can, say, ambush enemy units? Something like a double attack bonus on first attack.
Also it could introduce something like a replanting tech.
I would definitely like this for berry bushes aswell. The gathering tech for them is useless, given you run out of them 5 minutes into the game and farming is more useful.
Huntables could also be given something like this, but only for neutral territories i think. (controlled territories would be more for the Livestocks like chickens and sheepies etc)
Twould give hunting more of a reason to do

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I think regeneration of resources would work well for groves/forests. Just have it by default, no need for a tech (you don't own trees, they're Gaia).

About ambushing, yeah, I think it could be a bonus for some civs to be able to "garrison" units or battalions into groves and then they woukd attack any enemies battalions that march through, with a temporary "surprise" bonus.

[maroder]

I quite like the ambushing idea. That could lead to a more tactical gameplay & less whoever has more/better troops wins.

[Auron24015]

it would definitely lead to a more "planning helps" scenario, instead of the whole "I HAVE MORE MEN AND BETTER TECH" thing. Iberians won lots of battles against the romans with just rusty blades spears and shields, because they knew their land better and ambushed the romans a megaton of times.

This kind of thing could also lead to realistic forest generation. We could have larger forests which actually look like forests instead of trees which are close to each other lol



Also when formations are finally implemented it would discourage large groups to go into certain areas because they would fight poorly in there, but make small groups to do more damage because they can maneuver better in and out of the trees. (or other POI's)

Edited December 18, 2020 by Auron24015

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Lumber Camp mockup:

Capture the Lumber Camp dropsite (Yellow) and now you can gather wood outside your territory.

Forests are made up of Groves (Red-cartouche footprint; Blue-circle footprint) and can be depleted, but they do regenerate wood over time, faster if left alone. Groves have other attributes, such as they can be "garrisoned" by some civs' soldiers for an ambush effect, and they also have auras that cause units to have lower vision and movement speeds within their footprints. 

Straggler Trees (Green) are gatherable, but do not regenerate and can be built over by player structures (the tree disappears).

 

Edited December 24, 2020 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

Is permanent deforestation after a grove has been depleted possible with this mechanic?  

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

7 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Is permanent deforestation after a grove has been depleted possible with this mechanic?  

It is possible, but with groves they will regenerate if not depleted 100%.

[av93]

On 24/12/2020 at 7:56 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Lumber Camp mockup:

Capture the Lumber Camp dropsite (Yellow) and now you can gather wood outside your territory.

Forests are made up of Groves (Red-cartouche footprint; Blue-circle footprint) and can be depleted, but they do regenerate wood over time, faster if left alone. Groves have other attributes, such as they can be "garrisoned" by some civs' soldiers for an ambush effect, and they also have auras that cause units to have lower vision and movement speeds within their footprints. 

Straggler Trees (Green) are gatherable, but do not regenerate and can be built over by player structures (the tree disappears).

 

How garrisoning works? just like a wall? or the groove it's not an obstruction?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

2 hours ago, av93 said:

How garrisoning works? just like a wall? or the groove it's not an obstruction?

Now, EA can do it differently, but DE's trees and groves do not obstruct the pathfinder, for 2 reasons. 1. I thought fewer obstructions may give the pathfinder a performance boost (not yet benchmarked) and thought it okay to do this since other games like AOE3 already does this. 2. so groves can do cool things like have auras that affect units. There's the 'underbrush' aura that has these effects on units that traverse their footprints: -33% vision range, -33% range attack range, -33% movement speed.

Additionally, straggler trees (individual trees) can be built over by player's structures, making the tree disappear once the construction starts. Again I figured this could make things easier for the AI. It works well for human players too as they don't have to worry about chopping trees down first or trees dictating the shape and layout of their base. There just needs to have some UI improvements to make this 100% done (the tree should perhaps turn red when the construction preview is waved over it). 

Garrisoning for ambush would occur just like garrisoning any other "structure." Only the garrisoning player (and their allies) would see that the grove is garrisoned by that player's troops. 

Edited December 26, 2020 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Bossatchal]

Thank goodness for ridding us of straggler trees! 

I like the ideas of using grooves as a terrain for war. I think decreased movement, attack range, and vision make sense. I also think there should be modifiers for ambush because surprise should positively effect your battles. I'd envision a greater ambush modifier if enemy troops entered the forest because troops garrisoned there should have experience with the terrain. I would envision a smaller and short duration ambush modifier if your troops ran out of the forest. Also, I was wondering what people thought about garrisoning of some units and lumbering of some other units in the same area? I feel like those garrisoned units should not receive any ambush bonus.

I also wonder if more modifiers could be implemented with the climate. E.g. A player could invest in sturdy boots and coats for battles in winter. Negative modifier for archers to aim in rain with wet fletchings or at night.

Lastly, I loved Stronghold fires and was wondering what Justus thought about the ability to torch buildings in DE with the side effect of giving a "vengeance" morale boost to the enemy. Capturing and deleting felt silly after a while in the normal game.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

4 minutes ago, Bossatchal said:

Lastly, I loved Stronghold fires and was wondering what Justus thought about the ability to torch buildings in DE with the side effect of giving a "vengeance" morale boost to the enemy. Capturing and deleting felt silly after a while in the normal game.

A24 will add a "fire" effect where structures continue to lose health when attacked by fire units (currently, the Iberian Champ Cav).

[av93]

On 26/12/2020 at 10:20 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Now, EA can do it differently, but DE's trees and groves do not obstruct the pathfinder, for 2 reasons. 1. I thought fewer obstructions may give the pathfinder a performance boost (not yet benchmarked) and thought it okay to do this since other games like AOE3 already does this.

Well, in AoE3 trees aren't passable, just the forest have dispersion and the units can pass through, and the collision box of trees are very small

[Alexandermb]

On 27/12/2020 at 7:52 PM, Bossatchal said:

Lastly, I loved Stronghold fires

Maybe an special unit fast but weak to infiltrate on the enemy base and torch it, like an "always running" citizen able to torch barracks, houses, civic centers, farmlands, stables, but not walls, towers and defensive buildings.

if ability with cd were implemented. i thought on this because a reference drawing of an early ancient desertic civilization that was posted about a year ago.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

4 hours ago, av93 said:

Well, in AoE3 trees aren't passable, just the forest have dispersion and the units can pass through, and the collision box of trees are very small

You're right! The tree obstructions were so small I thought they were passable. Lol They might as well have been.

[wraitii]

This is pretty much Rise of Nations.
Certainly an interesting idea. _big_ departure from AoE-like gameplay we have right now though.

I don't think we'll look into those large gameplay changes short-short term, as it feels to me there's still a bunch of engine work to be done. That being said, the time approaches (on my end anyways).

---

Anyways, I'd say the thing I think we mostly need to fix is this...

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 29/12/2020 at 6:17 PM, Alexandermb said:

Maybe an special unit fast but weak to infiltrate on the enemy base and torch it, like an "always running" citizen able to torch barracks, houses, civic centers, farmlands, stables, but not walls, towers and defensive buildings.

A Spy/Assassin unit would be awesome. Perhaps a train limit of 1 or 2. To enemy players, your unit would look like one of their own, but to you the owning player it would look like an unsavory cloaked figure. They could have a few special abilities:

• Report
  • Garrison in an enemy building reveals its Production queue and garrison to you
  • Has no cool down time time, the Spy can move from building to building at will
• Sabotage
  • Task your Spy to sabotage an enemy building. This reduces its health by 1000 hp (or a percentage), and cancels its Production queue
    • Defensive Buildings, Civic Centers, and Fortress are immune, but Wall Gates are not
  • Has a 5-minute cool down time
• Bribe
  • Much like the Bribery feature in the diplomacy tab, it gives you the vision of the bribed unit. Bribe it twice and you can own and control the unit.
    • This could have success rate applied to it. If unsuccessful, your Spy may then become visible to the enemy. 
  • Has a cool down time
• Assassinate
  • Kill a target unit. The greater the health, the lower possibility of success (or we can base success rate on unit class). If unsuccessful, the target unit can fight back.
  • Has a cool down time

 

On 30/12/2020 at 4:23 AM, wraitii said:

Certainly an interesting idea. _big_ departure from AoE-like gameplay we have right now though.

Hmm, it's not so big of a departure I don't think. It's additive, not subtractive. Your gatherers are still tasked to chop the trees and groves like you would in AOE. If anything, 0 A.D. already forces a big departure from AOE gathering by making it primarily territory-based. My idea gives back the ability to gather outside of your territory by using mechanics (such as capturing and auras) that are already in the game.  

Edited January 2, 2021 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

A typical stone mine:

[Lion.Kanzen]

On 01/01/2021 at 9:41 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Assassinate

• Kill a target unit. The greater the health, the lower possibility of success (or we can base success rate on unit class). If unsuccessful, the target unit can fight back.
• Has a cool down time

 

bonus Vs Heroes.