Borg Expansion Pack Mod implementation in 0ad alpha 24 release.

[borg-]

I haven't worked on the champion soldiers yet. But this is an idea of how I want to them. They may not be too strong otherwise the counter may end up not working properly.
This is just a sketch of champion cavalary spear, and a champion cataphract (cavalry with more armor of the game).

Remembering that the cost of 7 slinger is 630 and 130 for cavalry spear champion.

@Lion.Kanzen

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by borg-

[borg-]

2 cataphract cost = 260 vs 7 slingers cost 630

4 cataphract vs 15 slingers

Edited November 9, 2019 by borg-

[Silier]

20 minutes ago, borg- said:

Is it possible that these dogs attack only workers and not soldiers? It would be a great idea.

If you mean workers = women yes, if you mean workers = citizen soldiers, that can fight and collect resources, no

[borg-]

Just now, Angen said:

If you mean workers = women yes, if you mean workers = citizen soldiers, that can fight and collect resources, no

Yeah, I meant women, sorry.

[Silier]

all soldiers should have class Soldier, so put that into restricted classes for dogs, but they will not to be able to defend themselves against soldiers if i remember that mechanic correclty

[Nescio]

22 minutes ago, borg- said:

Is it possible that these dogs attack only workers and not soldiers? It would be a great idea.

Yes, just insert e.g.
      <RestrictedClasses datatype="tokens">!Support</RestrictedClasses>

in the attack node; see e.g. the fishing boat template.

5 minutes ago, Angen said:

If you mean workers = women yes, if you mean workers = citizen soldiers, that can fight and collect resources, no

Actually !Worker would work.

[borg-]

A question for everyone, especially for @Lion.Kanzen
Should one spearmen rank 1 win 1v1 fight vs champion cavalary spear or sword?

[Silier]

my opinion, no  especially not against champion

6 minutes ago, borg- said:

A question for everyone, especially for @Lion.Kanzen
Should one spearmen rank 1 win 1v1 fight vs champion cavalary spear or sword?

 

[Sundiata]

7 minutes ago, borg- said:

Should one spearmen rank 1 win 1v1 fight vs champion cavalary spear or sword?

 

Spoiler

 

[borg-]

5 minutes ago, Angen said:

my opinion, no  especially not against champion

 

Well, in my opinion should. It may be unrealistic for a historical look, but balancing is necessary.
If I make lots of champion spear cav army, the enemy will have no chance of beating me, because the units that were supposed to do that can't. That's why we can't have field units that are stronger than ordinary units.

Of course spearmen champion could do this, but if i'm in phase 2 i would have no chance and would be insta gg. Not all civilizations have spearmen champions.

That's why in Age of Empires 2, even the strongest cavalry can be overthrown by lancers off up techs.

Edited November 9, 2019 by borg-

[Sundiata]

1 minute ago, borg- said:

If I make lots of champion spear cav army, the enemy will have no chance of beating me,

But that's the reward for you investment, isn't it? An investment that slows down your eco because they cost resources but don't produce any, and delays your troop build up because they take more time to train. The opponent has the option to harass the player early, preventing him building up a champion army in the first place, or train champions themselves, or simply outnumber his enemy with teched up citizen soldiers. 

[badosu]

Borg, let us know if you plan releasing something this weekend for playtesting, or if we can help in any other way.

[borg-]

7 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

But that's the reward for you investment, isn't it? An investment that slows down your eco because they cost resources but don't produce any, and delays your troop build up because they take more time to train. The opponent has the option to harass the player early, preventing him building up a champion army in the first place, or train champions themselves, or simply outnumber his enemy with teched up citizen soldiers. 

Of course, you lose economy, it's a price to pay, but champion welds can't be too expensive, it must be a price equal to their strength compared to a common unit. I really don't like super strong units, I think every unit should have its strengths and weaknesses, and a goal within the game. Okay, maybe you should win in a 1v1 fight, but only for the slightest advantage.
 

[borg-]

9 minutes ago, badosu said:

Borg, let us know if you plan releasing something this weekend for playtesting, or if we can help in any other way.

Yes, i have done some things already, i just need to finish the "special" units and gates. Soon I can make the citizens patch available for testing.

[Nescio]

As pointed out before, it's advisable not to change too many things at once.

[borg-]

Well maybe we can have rank technologies like dalenda and borg mod, I think that would solve this problem.

[Lion.Kanzen]

55 minutes ago, borg- said:

A question for everyone, especially for @Lion.Kanzen
Should one spearmen rank 1 win 1v1 fight vs champion cavalary spear or sword?

Vs spear can make some damage take as example a spearman vs a knight  in AoE.

You need 4-5 vs 1 to take down.

[Silier]

49 minutes ago, borg- said:

Well, in my opinion should. It may be unrealistic for a historical look, but balancing is necessary.
If I make lots of champion spear cav army, the enemy will have no chance of beating me, because the units that were supposed to do that can't. That's why we can't have field units that are stronger than ordinary units.

Of course spearmen champion could do this, but if i'm in phase 2 i would have no chance and would be insta gg. Not all civilizations have spearmen champions.

That's why in Age of Empires 2, even the strongest cavalry can be overthrown by lancers off up techs.

I am not telling 3 level spear one should be defeated by champion cav  sure he will loose and be dead, i am telling  melee champions should win 1v1 easily against melee if not facing champion. There should be question about quality vs quantity. For example, greek phalanx is superrior to roman tactics used in early battles, but greek soldiers were defeated because they were not trained enough. If there will fight greek "champions" they would probably win.

[Stan`]

@borg- what is your opinion on garrisoning units inside barracks for an experience trickle ?

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D1245

[borg-]

33 minutes ago, Stan` said:

@borg- what is your opinion on garrisoning units inside barracks for an experience trickle ?

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D1245

I really like this.

It would be nice if the icon of the garrisoned unit showed the rank, so we would know in which rank the units are.

For that the icons need to be separated, not sure if that would be possible.

Edited November 9, 2019 by borg-

[av93]

4 hours ago, Nescio said:

Historically bonuses don't make sense at all. Sword, spear, arrow are all potentially deadly; javelins don't become less dangerous just because you happen to be armed with a spear.

Mostly are conventions, but some roles according loosely from history can be designed. BTW, I think that it's better to make the bonus not related to mainly specific units, but to armour classes:

Spoiler

 

On 2/1/2017 at 12:32 AM, av93 said:

Well my suggestion would be something like this:

HEAVY INFANTRY

Spearman: Bonus against both cavalry.
Role: Basic unit available to every civilization. Main unit and useful to protect other units from cavalry. Meatshield

Swordsman: Higher base attack than spearman, bonus against heavy infantry.
Role: Break melee infantry fronts, kill unprotected units (light infantry, support or siege) 

Pikeman: High HP and Armor, low attack (if no formations are implemented, every unit gets a bonus attack aura for other pikes).  Bonus against cavalry. Slow movement.
Role: Protect ranged infantry, capture or when massed act like a powerful slow spearhead.

 

-LIGHT INFANTRY:

Skirmisher: Shortest range. Higher base attack
Role: Basic ranged unit. Useful against everything, but with low range it's the most vulnerable unit. The best ranged unit to deal against both cavalry types

Slinger: Medium range. Bonus against heavy infantry
Role: Better than skirmishers against heavy infantry. Should win skirmishers by range, but their damage between them could be on pair.

Archer: Long range. Low attack and bonus against Light Infantry.
Role: Kill skirmishers and slingers and support long range attack.

All light infantry get a bonus against Light Cavalry.

-HEAVY CAVALRY

Sword cav: Fast. Bonus against light infantry
Role: Kill light infantry (altough spear cav should be better), raid, and maybe catch light cavalry

Spear cavalry: Tankier armour, HP, Good attack. Slower
Role: Better frontline cavalry than swordman cavalry.

-LIGHT CAVALRY

Skirmisher cavalry: Good damage. Low range
Role: Hit and Run, effective against everything, but could be killed if get caught or by ranged units (so it would be mainly anti heavy infantry)

Archer cavalry: Low damage, Long range. Bonus against light units (both infantry and light cavalry). Less HP than skirmisher cavalry
Role: Hit and Run from distance, but worst DPS against heavy. Loose against ranged infantry if gets caught in range (specially against archer, with same range)

All defensive buildings get bonus against Light Cavalry

 

 

4 hours ago, borg- said:

I've thought a lot about them especially for the mod, but never found anything that they could be useful for. Some ideas?

Because I love a middle ground philosphy design between AoE3 and AoE2 in units roles and civs distinction, I would love to have "special units" with some role/stats change, but without overcomplicate the design.

Dogs could be one of this special units: I would make them good against workers and light infantry. If Britons are designed as a Rush civs, dogs could be a cheap and fast unit, to support infantry and skirmishers in p1 to harass economy, but later maybe they would be useless because cavalry.  

Edited November 9, 2019 by av93

[Loki1950]

The Romans used dogs as well part of their auxiliaries on the march they where cattle drovers the army's meat on the hoof loosed at the start of an engagement ahead of the skirmishers.Most of the larger dog breeds all over Europe are their descendants.

 

Enjoy the Choice

[borg-]

The first two balancing mods available. I have a lot more work to do, but I need to know what you think. Remembering that there is much that still needs to be done, fauna, siege engines, champ units, ships, etc.

Mod 1: Cc can train only women. Units are no invincible and do not celebrate when rank.

Mod 2: balance citizen units.

it's important to test with both mods.

 

I'm trying to avoid the bonuses, only when I see that it's really necessary.

A summary of the units:

Spearmen: Health 75, attack hack 6 - attack speed 1,25s, armour hack 3 - pierce 4, cost 50 food/50 wood, move speed 9.4, training time 10s, bonus 4x vs. cavalry.

Very strong vs cavalry. Absorbs a good damage from ranged units. Composed with ranged units makes a great combination. Vunerable vs swordmen infantry.

Swordmen: Health 65, attack hack 8 - attack speed 1,0s, armour hack 2 - pierce 2, cost 50 food/30 wood/20 metal, move speed 10,8, training time 10s, no bonus.

All around unit, great vs spearmen. Vulnerable vs archers. Win battles against javelins and slingers if these units are unprotected.

Pikemen: Health 90, attack hack 5 - attack speed 1,5s, armour hack 5 - pierce 4, cost 50 food/50 wood, move speed 7,6, training time 10s, bonus 5x vs. cavalry.

Tank unit. Very good vs cavalry (alone, can be very vulnerable), great mixed with units with great attack like swordmen/archer.

Archer: Health 60, attack pierce 7 - attack speed 1,15s, range 62, armour hack 1 - pierce 1, cost 50 food/50 wood, move speed 9.9, training time 10s, no bonus.

All around ranged unit. In large number does great damage. Vunerable vs melee and javelin cavalry, slinger and javelin infantry.

Javelin: Health 60, attack pierce 6 - attack speed 1,25s, range 32, armour hack 1 - pierce 2, cost 50 food/50wood, move speed 10.8, training time 10s, bonus 3x vs. archer.

Quick unit, great for hit and run. Specific to counter archers. Can cause great damage if protected by pikemen/spearmen. Vunerable vs all cavalry (have bonus vs archer cavalry, may have problems against range).

Slinger: Health 55, attack pierce 5, attack speed 1,25s, range 46, armour hack 0 - pierce 0, cost 50 food/20wood/20stone, move speed 11.3, training time 8s, bonus 2.5x vs. archer - 1.5x vs. champion cavalry (maybe vs champion melee infantry too).

The ranged unit fastest, cheapest and weakest unit in the game. Great for hit and run. Very vunerable vs cavalry.

Spear cavalry: Health 140, attack hack 7 - attack speed 1,25s, armour hack 3 - pierce 3, cost, 100 food/40 wood, move speed 16.0, training time 14s, bonus 1.8x vs cavalry (maybe a bonus vs sieges).

Tank cavalry. Specific to combat other cavalry. Can do great damage vs ranged units. Expensive and slow.

Sword cavalry: Health 125, attack hack 8 - atatck speed 1,25s, armour hack 2 - pierce 2, cost 90 food/30wood/20metal, move speed 17.0, training time 12s, no bonus.

All around cavalry. Can cause damage to all types of units. Vunerable vs pikemen/spearmen and Spear cavalry.

Javelin cavalry: Health 110, attack pierce 6 - attack speed 1,25s, armour hack 1 - pierce 2, cost 80food/40wood, move speed 17,5, training time 12s, bonus 3.0x vs archer - 1.5 vs. support.

Fast and cheap cavalry. Specifies for harassment and vs archers. Very vunerable vs spear cavalry.

Archer cavalry: Health 110, attack pierce 7 - attack speed 1,15s, armour hack 1 - pierce 1, cost 90food/40wood, move speed 17,0, training time 12s, no bonus.

All round ranged cavalry.  In large number does great damage. Vunerable vs pikeman/spearmen, spear/javelin cavalry.

Let me know what you think. Tnx!!!

 

 

[borg-]

Must be tested on svn.

mod1.zip 

mod2.zip

I found a bug with the spear cavalry, so I re upload mod 2.

Edited November 12, 2019 by borg-

[borg-]

I want to take the opportunity to say that the letter "H" is not working correctly in svn. Some units are not attacking the nearest and running towards the enemy.