borg- Posted March 10, 2019 Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Genava55 said: Cool, it is nice to see motivation to include this building Stan did a very good job on this and it would be a shame to limit it only to Atlas. By the way, in your mod, which faction causes you the much trouble to balance? Mauryans? The most difficult faction to balance is Ptolemaic, for having free houses/store, among other things. Overall the mod is well balanced, we do not see the same civilizations anymore all games, players are choosing all civilizations. The mod provides an immensity of new strategies, that is great. Since the beginning of the work I have tried to leave each civilization unique, so new constructions and unique units are always perfect. Edited March 10, 2019 by borg- 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundiata Posted March 10, 2019 Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, borg- said: The most difficult faction to balance is Ptolemaic, for having free houses/store, among other things. But why do they have free houses to begin with? It should be removed in my opinion (also in vanilla, especially in vanilla). Cheap houses, sure, no problem... But free houses doesn't make any sense... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
av93 Posted March 10, 2019 Report Share Posted March 10, 2019 1 hour ago, Sundiata said: But why do they have free houses to begin with? It should be removed in my opinion (also in vanilla, especially in vanilla). Cheap houses, sure, no problem... But free houses doesn't make any sense... Why? Straight AoM copy of the Egyptian bonus. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundiata Posted March 11, 2019 Report Share Posted March 11, 2019 2 hours ago, av93 said: Why? Straight AoM copy of the Egyptian bonus. lol... I think we should actively avoid those things... It's not like it adds anything desirable to the gameplay... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteTreePaladin Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 I think the original reasoning for the free buildings was that the Ptolemies would have had many ancient structures already built from old Egypt. That's also why the build set was heavily skewed Egyptian rather than Greek. The longer building construction time was a gameplay concession for balance. Doesn't mean it has to stay this way, just that's what I remember in the discussions back when the Ptolemies were first added. (I haven't played AoM. It's possible the effect was inspired by AoM, although I don't remember it being brought up at the time.) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
av93 Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 (edited) 24 minutes ago, WhiteTreePaladin said: I think the original reasoning for the free buildings was that the Ptolemies would have had many ancient structures already built from old Egypt. That's also why the build set was heavily skewed Egyptian rather than Greek. The longer building construction time was a gameplay concession for balance. Doesn't mean it has to stay this way, just that's what I remember in the discussions back when the Ptolemies were first added. (I haven't played AoM. It's possible the effect was inspired by AoM, although I don't remember it being brought up at the time.) In AoM it's exactly like that, some buildings are not free, but the ones that are need a longer building time. Seems that the topic have been splitted Edited March 12, 2019 by av93 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundiata Posted March 12, 2019 Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 9 minutes ago, av93 said: In AoM it's exactly like that, some buildings are not free, but the ones that are need a longer building time. Even the houses themselves are clearly inspired by AoM... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borg- Posted March 12, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2019 it's not just the houses, the deposits are free too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nani Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 Even the units are free ( Seth animals vassals only cost favour) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silier Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Sundiata said: Even the houses themselves are clearly inspired by AoM... Does not have to be case if they were based on the same reference Was not reason for free houses because they are build using clay or something like that? Edited March 13, 2019 by Angen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolf Dew Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 Though Egypt in AOM had other factors to balance it, like it requiring gold for almost every other building and unit that costed resources. I do believe even villagers costed gold. Unfortunately the Ptolemies don't have a con to the free building idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatherbushido Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 As said above, time is resource. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genava55 Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 8 hours ago, WhiteTreePaladin said: I think the original reasoning for the free buildings was that the Ptolemies would have had many ancient structures already built from old Egypt Then Seleucids should have the same with Persian, Assyrian and Babylonian heritage. I think we all agree there is not a flawless reasoning behind the free houses and free deposit. From what I know, the Ptolemaic economy is characterized by a good coinage, a good wheat production and a strong government with hierarchical institutions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatherbushido Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 We could find in different places (docs, tooltips): "Since they are made of mud brick, Egyptian {foo} are free of cost, but are very weak." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundiata Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 4 hours ago, Angen said: Does not have to be case if they were based on the same reference They're not based on references at all, that's the problem! That's not what Ancient Egyptian houses looked like, and as a historical game we should be careful not to perpetuate unnecessary stereotypes. I made a post about Egyptian housing before, I'll just share the artist references here again. Keep in mind that most of these are Dynastic Egyptian, not that different from later periods, but multistoried apartment blocks became more common in the Ptolemaic period. Spoiler 11 hours ago, WhiteTreePaladin said: I think the original reasoning for the free buildings was that the Ptolemies would have had many ancient structures already built from old Egypt. I'd go even further than what Genava said and say that this applies to every single civ in game. None of them appeared out of nowhere. All of them were built on the enduring legacy and heritage of those that came before them. The world wasn't empty in 500BC. It was already rather populated, and a significant number of our civs were already pretty developed before the 500BC date as well. . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurken Khan Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 3 hours ago, fatherbushido said: As said above, time is resource. Exactly. Usually I use one or two units to build houses, with ptolies it's more like five to ten. If instead of working the higher build time I had those additional units chopping wood I'm not even sure this 'free house bonus' is beneficial at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundiata Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 (edited) For me, "free" stuff like houses is really immersion breaking. I know time is a resource, I just don't understand the desire to keep this feature in a game like 0AD... The increased build time is equally confusing as to what makes this desirable or sensible or immersive? It's mud brick architecture, why would it cost more time to build? If anything, the logical thing for Egyptian houses is for them to be built in a shorter time. Think about it for more than a minute. How could vernacular architecture possibly take more time to build than say, a Roman house? Why don't we go for a compromise, and give a nominal cost, at least. The next cheapest houses are 75 wood. So why not let the Ptolemaic houses cost just 50 wood? Still a big advantage, but not immersion breaking. And reduce the increased build time dramatically please. Same for dropsites. Civ specific traits should be based on the actual civilization, and what made them unique or special. Not what another mythology inspire fantasy game did. There is so much to work with, as has been pointed out many times before. For Ptolemaic Egypt specifically, off the top of my head: Super densely populated (houses can have extra pop) Grain basket of the Mediterranean (increased income from farming) Incredibly rich (trade and/or mining bonuses) Mercenaries from everywhere! (they can hire everything from Kushites to Thracians, there was even a notable population of Scythians in Alexandria) Monumental temple construction, Egypt, land of the ancient gods (religious fervor, priestly bonuses) One of the most powerful navies in Antiquity (naval bonuses) Countless engineering marvels (improved siege, other techs related to construction) etc Edited March 13, 2019 by Sundiata 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borg- Posted March 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 What I thought was to make a small cost for houses and stores (example 40/60), and a quick build, its make more sense to me, since the houses were faster construction, but fragile and cheap. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borg- Posted March 13, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 5 hours ago, Sundiata said: For me, "free" stuff like houses is really immersion breaking. I know time is a resource, I just don't understand the desire to keep this feature in a game like 0AD... The increased build time is equally confusing as to what makes this desirable or sensible or immersive? It's mud brick architecture, why would it cost more time to build? If anything, the logical thing for Egyptian houses is for them to be built in a shorter time. Think about it for more than a minute. How could vernacular architecture possibly take more time to build than say, a Roman house? Why don't we go for a compromise, and give a nominal cost, at least. The next cheapest houses are 75 wood. So why not let the Ptolemaic houses cost just 50 wood? Still a big advantage, but not immersion breaking. And reduce the increased build time dramatically please. Same for dropsites. Civ specific traits should be based on the actual civilization, and what made them unique or special. Not what another mythology inspire fantasy game did. There is so much to work with, as has been pointed out many times before. For Ptolemaic Egypt specifically, off the top of my head: Super densely populated (houses can have extra pop) Grain basket of the Mediterranean (increased income from farming) Incredibly rich (trade and/or mining bonuses) Mercenaries from everywhere! (they can hire everything from Kushites to Thracians, there was even a notable population of Scythians in Alexandria) Monumental temple construction, Egypt, land of the ancient gods (religious fervor, priestly bonuses) One of the most powerful navies in Antiquity (naval bonuses) Countless engineering marvels (improved siege, other techs related to construction) etc Is possible add more metal to the initial ptoleimacan mine? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted March 13, 2019 Report Share Posted March 13, 2019 Not really. Maybe on random maps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faction02 Posted March 14, 2019 Report Share Posted March 14, 2019 (edited) I never got the loot associated with free buildings. Free house: no loot, free dropsite: 10 wood, free farmstead: 100 food+10wood, free coral: 25 food+10wood. What is the logic behind that part? Edited March 14, 2019 by faction02 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borg- Posted March 16, 2019 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2019 (edited) On 3/14/2019 at 5:06 PM, faction02 said: I never got the loot associated with free buildings. Free house: no loot, free dropsite: 10 wood, free farmstead: 100 food+10wood, free coral: 25 food+10wood. What is the logic behind that part? It's an additional loot to give a bit of realism. The add wood, i already retired in the new version. Since version 1.0 i reviewed and modified all loots according to the value of the construction Edited March 16, 2019 by borg- 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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