===[COMMITTED]=== Arab Javelineer and Nabatean Archer (Unit Texture)

[wackyserious]

Below are the proposed unit textures for the Arab Javelineer of the Seleucid faction (and the Judean slinger of the Ptolemaic faction)

[wackyserious]

Potential head props?

[Sundiata]

I'd love to be able to give you more detailed info. I'm curious about the use of head covers among Arab and Judean populations in antiquity myself, but I can't find much. The Keffiyeh is said to have evolved from an ancient Sumerian head covering, the Shemagh, but it's all a little vague, and I can't find any clear depictions of it from the levant in antiquity. They are often portrayed in popular culture, but I'm not sure what they're basing it on.

Simple, slightly conical felt(?) caps were a thing... A simple headband was also common. 

The last two pictures you shared aren't Seleucid units, but are Beja people (typical afro/locks), from Sudan (see the Blemmye mercs for the Kushites). I suspect that the guy who painted the models just adapted 19th century Beja units from a Mahdist pack and outfitted them with a Thyreos to make them fit in more. 

 

Spoiler

The following 2 images depict Hebrew tribute bearers in Assyrian reliefs (pre-dates 0AD by a few centuries)

 

Hebrew exiles from Lachish, after the Assyrian destruction of the city

 

"Kingdom of Israel and Judah" (9th century BC)

 

The only depiction that I'm personally familiar with that shows something very much like a Keffiyeh, which dates to 0AD's timeframe is actually from the Greco Bactrian Kingdom (3-2nd century BC), but that's quite a distance... Considering the Persian connection, there might be a common root with the Keffiyeh, but I really couldn't say for sure.

 

Edited January 3, 2019 by Sundiata

[Nescio]

10 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

Arab and Judean populations in antiquity

A word of caution: Arab originally meant desert dweller; we now call them Bedouins. So when in the Koran/Qur'an Mohammed calls the Arabs worse than heathens, he doesn't mean the people of Mecca and Medina, no, he's fulminating against the nomadic peoples who refuse to accept his leadership (and stick to the polytheism of their ancestors).

 

[Sundiata]

6 minutes ago, Nescio said:

A word of caution: Arab originally meant desert dweller; we now call them Bedouins. So when in the Koran/Qur'an Mohammed calls the Arabs worse than heathens, he doesn't mean the people of Mecca and Medina, no, he's fulminating against the nomadic peoples who refuse to accept his leadership (and stick to the polytheism of their ancestors).

Yes, you're absolutely right. I was literally just trying see if I could find anything on reliefs depicting Bedouins, or other "desert dwellers"   

Even today, what the term "Arab" refers to can be a little vague at best. 

Edited January 3, 2019 by Sundiata

[Diatryma]

check this.

[Sundiata]

2 hours ago, Diatryma said:

check this.

"Palmyran Legionaries"  3rd century AD.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Sundiata

[Diatryma]

1 hour ago, Sundiata said:

"Palmyran Legionaries"  3rd century AD.

the guy that haven't Palmyrene armor -_-U

[Sturm]

For the honor of Gods, we do need new head meshes!

Edited February 2, 2019 by Sturm

[wackyserious]

Bump.

We need to decide. Do we go for Hellenistic clothing or traditional/local clothing.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

See DE for my vote.

[Lion.Kanzen]

https://www.persee.fr/doc/topoi_1161-9473_2006_num_14_1_2144

Very complex definition to call them Arab. There are several peoples.

They call Arab any related with Arabian peninsula. Specially pastoral nomads.

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Arab word is really elastic and SO complicated !

There are more than 20 different Arab cultures there, which one do you ask about particularly?

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Diodorus’ references to Idumea are made in the context of the wars between the Seleucid ruler, Antigonus Monophthalmus, and the Nabateans in ca. 312 BCE.8 First, Idumea is mentioned on the occasion of the campaign of one of Antigonus’ generals, Athenaeus, against a Nabatean stronghold called ἡ πέτρα (Diod. 19.95). Let us now give voice to Diodorus himself:9 „It appears that such are the customs of the Arabs. But when the time draws near for the national gathering at which those who dwell round about are accustomed to meet, some to sell goods and others to purchase things that are needful to them, they travel to this meeting, leaving on a certain rock their possessions and their old men, also their women and their children. This place is exceedingly strong but unwalled, and it is distant two day

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65 Kasher 1988, 48; Kokkinos 1998, 43 n.  35. Remarkably, at Bellum Civile 2.71.294, Lucanus recalls allied troops on the side of Pompey, employing a more ‚national‘ perspective: he speaks about the nations of the Levant and mentions, among others, the Hebrews (τὸ Ἑβραίων γένος) and their neighbors, the Arabs (Ἄραβες οἱ τούτων ἐχόμενοι). Although Judea had contact with various neighbors that could be labeled as Arabs (e. g., the Itureans and Nabateans), we do not know anything about such contingents at Pharsalus. However, we do know that the two men who actually pulled the strings in Judea were Hyrcanus II and Antipater the Idumean (who was more or less behind Hyrcanus II). In this light, it is tempting to speculate that the troops sent to Pompey were Idumean troops, which an outsider such as Lucanus could have mistaken for being Arab. As late as in the sixth century CE, Stephanus of Byzantium (s. v. Edoumaioi) also had doubts as to whether the Edomites/Idumeans were of Hebrew or Arabic origin.

Strabo give to them more

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Details about inhabitants called Árabs are found only in Arabia Deserta, perhaps with one exception. Arabia Deserta consists of two entities: the parts inhabited by the tent-dwellers, the skenitai, and the parts of the peoples between Heroonpolis and Babylon: the Arabian peoples, the Nabataeans, the Khaulotaeans and the Agraeans. The names of these latter obviously come from a description of a route connecting Egypt with eastern Arabia, avoiding Palestine and Syria. This is supported by the fact that the distance (c. 1,000 kilometres) is not too far from the correct one from Suez to Kuwayt. This means, however, that Babylon cannot stand for the city, but must refer to the whole of lower Mesopotamia.!?”

In Strabo”s text we have another notice, probably from Eratosthenes, which we have treated already, and which should be read together with the enumeration of the peoples in the Syrian desert. In his description of Gerrha, Strabo has mixed two accounts, one from Aristobulus telling about the traffic of the Gerrhaeans up the Euphrates, and one from Eratosthenes saying that the Gerrhaeans travelled overland for the most part, with the merchandise and aromatics of the árabes.!28 This seems to indicate a route across the desert, i.e. south of the Euphrates. We remember that Agatharchides mentioned the Minaeans and the Gerrhaeans bringing frankincense to the rock in the Negev.!?? As we pointed out, this piece of information probably did not belong to Agatharchides' main source, Ariston. Instead it is a supplementary note added by Agatharchides and taken from another source. lt is not unlikely that both Eratosthenes and Agatharchides have this information from the same source. Interestingly, the traffic on the road between the ancient territory of Edom and Gaza through the Negev is documented from c. 240 BC onwards.!13% On the whole, the later Nabataean sites in the Negev, like Elusa and Nessana, are traceable from the late third century onwards, not earlier.1*! Thus there is much that speaks in favour of the assumption that a route through northern Arabia from the Gulf to Suez was established in the latter half of the third century BC.

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These occupied the country as far as the Euphrates. They were almost naked, with girdles about their bodies and clothed in large blankets. Every one of them was a warrior. On their fleet, thinlegged horses and their camels they were everywhere to be seen. On these they fought and got their sustenance from the creatures' milk and meat. The Nabatheans were specially noted for their predatory habits and plundered their neighbors far and wide. In the interior of the country...

ties, but only dwellers in tents, and the majority of the people lived the life of herdsmen, and were rich in various kinds of animals, so that they could live without grain. Of the southern part of Arabia the most glowing descriptions are given. "To the ends of the earth the greatest blessings are granted," remarks Herodotus, "tso also to Arabia, the end of the inhabited earth." Strabo says, "the extreme of Arabia at the sea, the Minaeans inhabit, their capital is Kama, next to these are the Sabaeans, whose capital is Mariaba; farther to the west toward the inner part of the Arabic Gulf are the Katabanes whose king lives at Thamma, and finally situated farthest to the east are the Chatramatites whose city is Sabbatha." Pliny includes all this territory in the Sabaean kingdom, and says that their land stretched from sea to sea and the capital of all was Mariaba. Agatharchides tells us that the Sabaeans inhabit the so-called Happy Arabia. " Here grow in great abundance the most beautiful fruits, and here are found innumerable animals of all kinds. Here grow the balsam and the cassia. Farther inland there are dense woods of tall frankincense, and myrrh trees, and, besides this cinnamon, palm, calmus, and trees of a like kind which breathed the most delightful fragrance. The odor is divine and exceeds all description. Even those who sail by, though far from the coast, enjoy the fragrance, when the wind blows from the shore. For the aroma is not old, but in its full strength and bloom, so that those who sail by this coast think that they enjoy ambrosia, as the strength and fullness of the fragrance carf be described by no other name." The capitals of these provinces are described in the same glowing terms, and the luxury of the courts and the riches of their temples are especially worthy of note. Diodorus thus describes the riches of their palaces. "They have a great many gold and silver utensils; halls, whose pillar-shafts are gilded, whose capitals are ornamented with silver, whose architraves and doors are ornamented with gold and silver." If we turn to the Bible references, we find that Sheba, the country of the Sabaeans, a people rich in spices, frankincense, gold and precious stones,

https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/pdfplus/10.1086/470416

Edited July 26, 2019 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

Spoiler

 

[wackyserious]

@Alexandermb Are planning to make a turban mesh for the Arabic units or should we continue to use the coif mesh and texture for the Ummayads from Millennium AD mod?

[Alexandermb]

On 1/3/2019 at 3:03 AM, wackyserious said:

Potential head props?

@wackyserious this one? 

[wackyserious]

@Alexandermb Something like this, similar to what we have in Millennium AD

[wackyserious]

Could the Beja shields from Kushite art asset be used for the Arab javelin infantry?

[Genava55]

https://europabarbarorum.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Saba

https://europabarbarorum.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Nabatu

https://europabarbarorum.fandom.com/wiki/Reglaya_Mehrebay_(North_Arabian_Shortswordsmen)

https://europabarbarorum.fandom.com/wiki/Fayah_'Alatin_(South_Arabian_Tribal_Highlanders)

https://europabarbarorum.fandom.com/wiki/Erínamesh_ana-Arabim_(East_Coast_Levies)#EB2

https://europabarbarorum.fandom.com/wiki/Aba'al_(Sabean_Citizen_Militia)

[Sundiata]

2 hours ago, wackyserious said:

Could the Beja shields from Kushite art asset be used for the Arab javelin infantry?

Not really. Those shields are made from animal hides that are not easily available "up north" (elephant, rhino, hippopotamus)

Plenty of inspiration for Arab shields among the art references (including the ones Genava linked). For example, shield bosses are rare among the Sudanese round shields (only wealthy elite), while they are more common among the Arab round shields, like this:

 

[wackyserious]

What about these for the Nabatean camel archers? I am planning to incorporate the armor textures from the Judea mod, as seen below worn by the elite rank units.

[Sundiata]

3 hours ago, wackyserious said:

What about these for the Nabatean camel archers? I am planning to incorporate the armor textures from the Judea mod, as seen below worn by the elite rank units.

Very cool!

One thing I'd still like to see is those shoulder length pleated hairstyles that Arabs traditionally sport. I'm not sure how Hellenization affected hairstyles, but it would be cool to incorporate it for the lower rank units at least. Do we have long beards in-game?

Arabs on the left being smote by some unpleasant Neo-Assyrian King (Tiglath-Pileser III)

 

[Nescio]

Actually I'm not sure the Arabs (including the Nabateans) wore body armour, helmets, or shields.

[Nescio]

Furthermore, 0 A.D.'s Ptolemaic and Seleucid unit rosters are evidently based on the Battle of Raphia as described in Polybius book V, which is understandable, because it was a significant battle, the description is detailed, and Polybius is considered a reliable author, but also problematic, because that fight was unusual in many aspects. E.g. it was the only time the Ptolemies used Egyptian troops and the only time the Seleucids fielded a large body of Arabs, so having the Egyptian pikeman and Arab skirmisher as basic starter units for these factions is not really representative.

[Sundiata]

2 hours ago, Nescio said:

Furthermore, 0 A.D.'s Ptolemaic and Seleucid unit rosters are evidently based on the Battle of Raphia

No they are not. I figured out a big bone of contention in some/many of your historical critiques. You aim to represent factions as a specific snapshot in time, which makes referencing impossible and ignores that 0AD is set in the time period from 500 B.C. to 1 B.C. I already pointed out that the Ptolemies have Cleopatra VII in their unit roster. They also have Ptolemy I in their unit roster. The Seleucids have Seleucus I as well as Antiochus IV. 

 

2 hours ago, Nescio said:

E.g. it was the only time the Ptolemies used Egyptian troops

This is not correct either. The Machimoi are even mentioned in the Rosetta Stone (under Ptolemy V). 

[Sundiata]

3 hours ago, Nescio said:

Actually I'm not sure the Arabs (including the Nabateans) wore body armour, helmets, or shields.

There was a very high degree of Hellenization among the urbanite Nabataeans. It's highly unlikely that they didn't use body armor, helmets or shields. 

 

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a. Relief showing a Nabataean warrior god wearing a helmet, from the Temenos-gate, today on display in the Petra Archaeological Museum (Gesichter des Orients 2005: 144 Fig. 7.6).