===[COMMITTED]=== Horse Update

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, serveurix said:

I mean turrets in the gamecode sense of the term : the ability for a part of a model to shoot in a certain direction without rotating the whole model. That would allow the three archers to shoot at three different targets in three different directions while the elephant is facing a fourth one. Nothing to do with the wooden turrets on top of successor's elephants.

oops, now I understand.

[Sundiata]

@Alexandermb, seen as you're having a go at the elephants, maybe you and @wackyserious could work on the Kushite Hero Elephant (ridden by King Arakamani):

I found this sumptuous illustration of a Kushite King on his war-elephant. Kushites probably wouldn't have made (much) use of towers on their small forest elephants, but we can easily imagine a king riding a larger bull, with a lightweight tower (call it Ptolemaic influence). I think the image is an excellent imagination of what a towered royal Kushite war elephant could have looked like. My only suggestion is to replace the green fabric with padded cotton.

 

I'll understand if you don't have time for this, you're both quite busy people, it would just be nice to replace the current placeholder.

[Nescio]

4 hours ago, Alexandermb said:

Actually is the whole body, the camels are using the old unit mesh

It would be nice if it could be improved, however, it has certainly no priority. Undoubtedly there are many other more important things.

5 hours ago, stanislas69 said:

As much as possible I'd like stuff to be used when they get committed

Yeah, but if something is not directly used in the default distribution, it can still be worth including it anyway. Currently (A22) there are at least a dozen units which exist but are untrainable. A few more doesn't hurt.

 

(Furthermore, maybe some of the Kushite visual actors could also be included in the svn (if they are finished and qualitatively at least as good as their counterparts of the existing factions); some of them are already being used in several mods, and quite a few players appear to like the Kushites. (Just a suggestion to ponder upon ))

[Stan`]

The only occurence of something like that I know of is some Chinese texture currently in the game. While I consider adding unused functions in the engine to make it more moddable, such as https://trac.wildfiregames.com/ticket/3488 I don't think adding art is a good idea. First because the people maintaining art assets notably programmers who could have already 12 used civs to deal with so adding random actors just for fun doesn't seem like a good idea. Then because it gets hard to keep track of all the mods using stuff that should be committed especially if said stuff is tweaked differently in every mods.

This ^ also is a good example of "it's not because we used to do it in the past that it's a good idea". Also it means we are bundling useless stuff for releases. 

Quote

(Furthermore, maybe some of the Kushite visual actors could also be included in the svn (if they are finished and qualitatively at least as good as their counterparts of the existing factions); some of them are already being used in several mods, and quite a few players appear to like the Kushites. (Just a suggestion to ponder upon  ))

I guess what I said above applies to this, unless Kushites are integrated alltogether.

[Alexandermb]

Update***  

• Fixed the horse chest band and added some elephant riders animation
• Fixed archer prepare time for match the animation
• Horse_new.7z

Edited November 12, 2017 by Alexandermb

[Lion.Kanzen]

Just now, stanislas69 said:

The only occurence of something like that I know of is some Chinese texture currently in the game. While I consider adding unused functions in the engine to make it more moddable, such as https://trac.wildfiregames.com/ticket/3488 I don't think adding art is a good idea. First because the people maintaining art assets notably programmers who could have already 12 used civs to deal with so adding random actors just for fun doesn't seem like a good idea. Then because it gets hard to keep track of all the mods using stuff that should be committed especially if said stuff is tweaked differently in every mods.

This ^ also is a good example of "it's not because we used to do it in the past that it's a good idea". Also it means we are bundling useless stuff for releases. 

I guess what I said above applies to this, unless Kushites are integrated alltogether.

In campaign  the game will need some minifactions. or some buildings from non playable civs.

[Nescio]

28 minutes ago, stanislas69 said:

The only occurence of something like that I know of is some Chinese texture currently in the game. While I consider adding unused functions in the engine to make it more moddable, such as https://trac.wildfiregames.com/ticket/3488 I don't think adding art is a good idea. First because the people maintaining art assets notably programmers who could have already 12 used civs to deal with so adding random actors just for fun doesn't seem like a good idea. Then because it gets hard to keep track of all the mods using stuff that should be committed especially if said stuff is tweaked differently in every mods.

This ^ also is a good example of "it's not because we used to do it in the past that it's a good idea". Also it means we are bundling useless stuff for releases. 

I guess what I said above applies to this, unless Kushites are integrated alltogether.

Yes, I fully agree the statement “it's done in the past therefore it's a good idea” is false.

To clarify, I'm not arguing to include just anything into the svn; instead, I think it might be worth considering including visual actors which are not yet used but might be later. E.g. the Mauryans do not have any siege units at the moment, but those might be added later, therefore I think it's a good idea to include Alexandermb's Mauryan ram visual actor.

Besides, “unused” certainly doesn't mean “useless”; having a couple of extra units is useful for scenarios (and mods). I just checked A22 and I found these “unavailable” units (there might be more, I didn't check carefully):

brit_hero_boudicca_sword.xml
brit_hero_cunobelin_infantry.xml
mace_hero_craterus.xml
mace_hero_philip_pike.xml
mace_hero_pyrrhus.xml
noldor_ship_bireme.xml
pers_arstibara.xml
pers_hero_xerxes_chariot.xml
ptol_infantry_archer_nubian.xml
rome_legionnaire_imperial.xml
rome_legionnaire_marian.xml
samnite_skirmisher.xml
samnite_spearman.xml
samnite_swordsman.xml
spart_champion_infantry_pike.xml
theb_mechanical_siege_fireraiser.xml
thebes_sacred_band_hoplitai.xml
thespian_melanochitones.xml
viking_longboat.xml

 

[Stan`]

Heroes in this list should and will be used when we implement dismounting.

Romans and Thebans are the remains of the time where the republican romans were part of part1 see @wowgetoffyourcellphone 's mod for their integration.

Some units are easter eggs, I'll let you guess whos who.

 

 

[Sundiata]

Just some thoughts:

17 hours ago, stanislas69 said:

unless Kushites are integrated alltogether.

That's what I'm passionately hoping for... Not just Kushites, but also Han Chinese need to be included in vanilla, and it would be awesome if you could finish the Thracian faction as well, before the next alpha release. 15 factions is better than 12, no question about that. It's also one of the easiest ways to attract new people and bring back old fans, generate interest and add diversity. The next release needs to make a splash! New civ's are some of the most visible and visually appealing addition an RTS of this type can add!

I also think the next release shouldn't be rushed (at all), and all the projects currently being worked on need to be implemented, even if it takes a few more months. We have viable competition now, so I believe the next release needs to be as comprehensive as possible, to keep 0AD "competitive". This means very noticeable changes, upgrades and additions need to be embraced to make the next release more convincing and appealing. 

also,

- All of the old unit meshes need to be replaced (every single one), though I don't know the status of that project, I admit.

- Somebody needs to contact Enrique ASAP (there must be someone who has a personal contact/social media link to him). I loved his work on the horses and units, but it pains me to see it go to waste... I think he should either take a week off and finish up some of his projects, or release the necessary files for someone else to work on it. Off course we can respect his absence, but we shouldn't stall development on important aspects of an open source project because of it either.

- Formal implementation of minicivs: The Xiognu (helps link China to the greater game). There is another miniciv already implemented as gaia on some maps: The Celts. Thracians could also have a miniciv-derivative.

- I'll be the guy to say things other people are shy to say: the GUI needs a serious revamp. LordGood's paintings looks really nice. That really old painting with the hoplites at an acropolis is really not so nice. Although the main menu is just a vertical panel, it looks like it's from 2003... Why those square, dark grey tiles?? Why not a single slab of marble or something?

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

@Sundiata no only needs a cosmetic redesign.

18 hours ago, stanislas69 said:

Heroes in this list should and will be used when we implement dismounting.

Romans and Thebans are the remains of the time where the republican romans were part of part1 see @wowgetoffyourcellphone 's mod for their integration.

Some units are easter eggs, I'll let you guess whos who.

 

 

We gonna implement that? wowwwww.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

16 hours ago, Sundiata said:

Kushites, but also Han Chinese need to be included in vanilla, and it would be awesome if you could finish the Thracian faction as well, before the next alpha release.

If WFG had any sense they would take your comment seriously. It's a no brainer to add the Kushites, Han, and maybe Thracians if they start to look promising. WFG has 2 nearly complete factions right now they could include to make a nice addition to new alpha releases. 

The Xiongnu, Hell, with the progress on them being so good, there's no reason to not include them as a "true" faction. What's the diff between a "mini" faction and a full faction anyway? I think the Xiongnu surpassed what I would consider a mini-faction long ago. A mini-faction to me would be like 3 or 4 buildings and 5 total units and would basically be map creeps to annoy and harass the players. Could lock or unlock making them playable in match setup, locked as default.

Alpha 23: Kushite Africans. "Surprise 0 A.D. fans! You thought we were done adding factions? teeheehee"

Alpha 24: Han Chinese

Alpha 25: Thracians

Alpha 26: Two nomadic factions, with fully-realized nomadic features: Scythians and Xiongnu

Beta 1: You get the Nabataeans as a special prize! NOW IS WHEN YOU BALANCE, BECAUSE IT'S THE BETA.

[Stan`]

15 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

@Sundiata no only needs a cosmetic redesign.

We gonna implement that? wowwwww.

There has been a Poc. (Proof of concept)

[Alexandermb]

i will upload the files but first i will upload some gifs for the horse alone; i've made some adjustmends to the horse back legs

Trot (or Walk for ingame cav)
 

Spoiler

Galop (Run)
 

Spoiler

Walk Relax
 

Spoiler

 

Edited November 21, 2017 by Alexandermb

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Animations look great. The UV mapping needs a lot of help though.

[Stan`]

Well maybe just more props so that they don't deform that way ?

[Alexandermb]

Here's the look of the uvs with another textures and the actual horse for comparison

[Alexandermb]

A reminder for the future mounted animals: don't use the same walk animation for fauna/cavalry, they look unrealistic unless the speed is equal to the animation footsteps for example the actual horse only have 1 walk animation and it looks ok if the horse is fauna or if the horse is the trader horse but if it is the cavalry, the speed is higher and the horse looks rushed i think it applys too for the camel.

[Imarok]

When galopping the Front legs look strange.

The left one is overstretched and bounces strangely. The right one should be stretched out more before reaching the ground.

I have not read through the whole thread, but why aren't you using the wip animations from @Enrique? 

[Alexandermb]

This was the only i could find about the horses, the blender files with the actual horse body, the new one stan did and i took some time ago the one called "Horse_New" in the art folders wich didn't have uv maps so i fixed them the most similar to the actual horse and started from the beginning with the actual skeleton for avoid bugs, but they are still a wip.

[Alexandermb]

Edited November 21, 2017 by Alexandermb

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

11 hours ago, Imarok said:

I have not read through the whole thread, but why aren't you using the wip animations from @Enrique? 

Do you have link to those?

 

I really appreciate the scale of the new horse. The old horse looks comically small in comparison, even taking into account that ancient horses were smaller than modern horses.

We may be able to keep the current horse and animations, but rename them to pony_. I seem to remember reference to Celts using ponies to pull their chariots, not full-sized horses.

Edited November 22, 2017 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Imarok]

3 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Do you have link to those?

No, I guess we'd need to ask @Enrique

[Stan`]

@Imarok Itms and I have tried to contact him but we got no answer.... 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

14 hours ago, Alexandermb said:

Here's the look of the uvs with another textures and the actual horse for comparison

I think the shape of the head on the old pony is more accurate than the new horse.

[Sundiata]

@Alexandermb I'm loving the work you're doing. I have a few remarks though:

• Firstly, the old head does actually look better than the new one (horses have eyes looking to the sides, not the front)
• The main "issue" with your current animations is anatomical: the horse is missing it's chest. The chest is a pronounced feature of any horse. It's absence makes the model and animations look a little awkward. (perhaps this is a skeletal issue, horses front legs go underneath the body, not awkwardly blending in to its neck.

 

Comparison:

 

 

And finally a video that might help with the animations, especially, walk, trot and gallop: