The Kingdom of Kush: A proper introduction [Illustrated]

[balduin]

On 1/20/2017 at 10:35 PM, Sundiata said:

Marketplace

I think the marketplace might have looked quite generic. For 0AD, some rectangular stalls, constructed with 4 simple pillars supporting a roof covered with palm branches or reeds, for shade may be sufficient. Maybe a statue of Arensnuphis, a Kushite deity, on a pedestal in the middle as eye-candy.

@Sundiata I do not agree with the look of the marketplace. I think the marketplace would have been a place or a street surrounded tend like stores which are full with goods. I found some images of modern Sudanese markets:

I believe those markets must have looked very similar 2000 years ago cities like Meroe.

My idea would be to have a place surrounded by fabric covered market stalls and goods all over the place. The market could be a little colorful, because of fruits. And maybe some meroitic ceramic pots should be staying around.

The entrance of the market could be flanked by two statues of Arensnuphis. What is your opinion on that?

Edited February 16, 2017 by balduin

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

5 hours ago, balduin said:

@wowgetoffyourcellphone In the JSON file you posted you mentioned the following sound files:

• "The_Blue_Nile.ogg"
• "Kandake's_Dance.ogg"
• "The_Tombs_of_Our_Fathers.ogg"
• "Our_Sacred_Mountain.ogg"

Those are just suggested music titles.

 

For "unique" thing to Kushites:

Their pyramids. Full stop. Make these a defining characteristic of the civ somehow. Possibile features:

• Make building pyramids a prerequisute for phasing
• Make them integral to the economy somehow -- trickle?
• Maybe make each new pyramid add to the territory effect of buildings
• Each new pyramid can cost more than the last -- see DE cult statues for this
• Perhaps all of the above or a combination or something I haven't thought of.

 

 

For integration into DE, all I would need is a cult statue object and I can do all the rest -- like the mercs for mercenary camps. Many of the merc camp mercs in DE are the vanilla "mercs" just repurposed to my feature. Others are all-new to plug gaps. Either way, in DE's merc camp feature it give access to troop types to all civs, just in different ways. 

 

 

Edited February 16, 2017 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[feneur]

I would have to agree with @wowgetoffyourcellphone, if I remember correctly that area is where the most pyramids in the world are to be found, so that would be really nice to both highlight (to teach people) and make them stand out from the other civilizations.

[niektb]

Rise of the East = Terra Magna, compatibility with Vanilla means it's compatible with Terra Magna too. 

I need to rename a few things here and there but I want to do that simultaneously with announcing the merge and altering the moddb page

So, if you ( @balduin @Sundiata) like to, you can open a few topics in the Rise of the East forum (I can move this one too)

[LordGood]

perhaps we could make the kushites the only civ that can build several less potent and more affordable wonders? otherwise we end up with a wonder vaccuum

[Tomcelmare]

Perhaps we could also implement cheap archers, but training very fast, for rushing tactics?

[balduin]

@niektb It would be nice to have a Terra Magna forum. You should keep the Rise of the East forum, maybe rename it to "Han China". It is maybe a good idea to have a Terra Magna forum with sub forums for every civilization "Han China", "Zapotecs", "Kushites". By the way what is the fourth civilization?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

4 hours ago, Tomcelmare said:

Perhaps we could also implement cheap archers, but training very fast, for rushing tactics?

Yes, and remove this from them Ptolemies. Ptolemies should be a booming civ, not rushing civ.

[Tomcelmare]

Actually, I don't see these nubian archers anymore for the ptolemies in the svn version...

[niektb]

@balduin: I think it would be somewhat overkill to have a subforum for each civilization (for that handfull of topics that a civ would have). Some clear labeling fo the topics would be good though.

We haven't thought about a fourth civ yet (I suppose it's somewhat unnecessary to know it at this point, considering that all three civs are not entirely finished), maybe some South East Asia would be fun? (as long it's a cool civ from a different area than what we have now...)

[av93]

I would suggest Scythians, as a nomadic civ for cultural and gameplay pov

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I too suggest Scythians. I was going to add them to DE, but I think better to collaborate. I have try some tests with movable buildings and it work just fine, using the Upgrade feature already in the game, meaning no need for new feature.

 

 

[niektb]

Anyway, that's of later concern

[Sundiata]

Hello Hello! First of all, apologies for my absence. I’m back in Belgium, and working full time again. Reuniting with family and friends I haven’t seen in years. Getting important paperwork done. It’s a little hectic, to say the least.

@LordGood “I would find the most prominent Kushite-specific techs (ie. I would consider a metal mining passive bonus to emphasize their massive metalworking industry.) and one or two "special buildings". One of those special buildings could be a "cult statue" though I would think Justus would want the freedom to define that template himself in DE

for example, the Carthaginians get triple wall health, and they get embassies and Cothons as special buildings

Zapotecs have an infantry speed and melee attack bonus at the cost of armor, and they have a ball court special building (or they should, its modelled but doesn't have an entity behind it yet)”

I agree. Non-champion Kushite units should have a speed and melee attack bonus at the cost of armor. (Nubian?) Archers should become increasingly accurate as they gain experience (represented by 1 feather, 2 feathers and 3 feathers in their hair). Horses and chariots should have speed and attack bonus. Units should have low food cost. On the flip-side champion units are expensive (high wood and metal cost). Many small things add to a single big advantage: Kushites are good for rushing.

The Temple to Amun should be their special building (very Egyptian looking). It should have a small metal trickle (they were economic centers, as much as spiritual) and should be able to recruit an elite unit, called the “warriors of Amun”, modeled after New Kingdom South Egyptian temple guards of Nubian origin, like the Nakhtu-aa (fig 97), with armor piercing hatchets.

Obviously, the distinctive Sudanese pyramids were a trademark feature for the Kushites. @wowgetoffyourcellphone

“Their pyramids. Full stop. Make these a defining characteristic of the civ somehow. Possibile features:

•                Make building pyramids a prerequisute for phasing

•                Make them integral to the economy somehow -- trickle?

•                Maybe make each new pyramid add to the territory effect of buildings

•                Each new pyramid can cost more than the last -- see DE cult statues for this

•                Perhaps all of the above or a combination or something I haven't thought of.”

I like those! Don’t know what could be the trickle though? I think “prerequisite for phasing”, “territory effect for buildings” and “increasing cost for each new pyramid” are the winners here.

 As Lordgood said, instead of a single wonder, they could have three (modest) pyramids, one for every phase.

Scythians are cool… Even more unique than the Kushites, in terms of game-play. It will be interesting to see how mobile structures will be implemented.

@balduin I kind of agree with you on the market, but not entirely. The pictures you shared look like any generic contemporary market in most places in Africa. Although I like the idea of fabrics covering the stalls. Less formal, more chaotic. Is good...

Edited February 21, 2017 by Sundiata

[Sundiata]

Pyramids and the Temple to Amun

 

Pyramids: 

fig. 116  Kushites built many different types of pyramids. Here are a few of the most interesting in terms of features:

 

fig. 117  Before the Italian "explorer" Guiseppe Ferlini destroyed more than 40 pyramids in search of treasure in the 1830's, many of the pyramids in Meroe were still largely intact.

 

fig. 118  A collection of various Kushite pyramid reconstructions.

 

 

Temple to Amun:

Here are some images for models of the special building, the Temple to Amun, in Napata. All other Kushite temples to Amun including the one at Meroe follow nearly identical patterns: 

fig. 119

 

fig. 120

Edited May 28, 2017 by Sundiata

[av93]

Temple of Amun could be the wonder

[Sundiata]

On 21 Feb 2017 at 4:21 PM, av93 said:

Temple of Amun could be the wonder

Most (if not all) important centers in ancient Kush had a temple to Amun: Naqa, Napata, Meroe, Dangeil, Basa, Kawa, Qasr Ibrim, Sanam, El Hassa, Tabo… I'm afraid it was too common, and too functional to be a wonder. These temple complexes served an important (economic, religious and military) purpose in Kushite society. Too important to make them an "optional" wonder. The cult of Amun formed a kind of shadow government that even challenged Kingship. They operated through this network of temple complexes, and it would be nice to see this reflected in a functional way (metal trickle, and the ability to recruit professional soldiers). And what would we do with the pyramids, if the temple to amun becomes the wonder?

Edited March 7, 2017 by Sundiata

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Sundiata said:

Most (if not all) important centers in ancient Kush had a temple to Amun: Naqa, Napata, Meroe, Dangeil, Basa, Kawa, Qasr Ibrim… I'm afraid it was too common, and too functional to be a wonder. These temple complexes served an important (economic, religious and military) purpose in Kushite society. Too important to make them an "optional" wonder. The cult of Amun formed a kind of shadow government that even challenged Kingship. They operated through this network of temple complexes, and it would be nice to see this reflected in a functional way (metal trickle, and the ability to recruit professional soldiers). And what would we do with the pyramids, if the temple to amun becomes the wonder?

Well, the Pyramids are phase prerequisites, the wonder is not*.

Though, I like your idea of making it a special building instead. It should be smaller in my opinion than the Ptolemy wonder, so not to be confused with wonder. Maybe possible to make building 5 pyramids a "wonder" victory for these guys?

For the pyramids, can make the player have to build 2 of them for Town phase and then maybe 3 more for City phase, so they have to have multiple ones. With auras, you can make the pyramids increase in cost for each one you build. Instead of the phase tech increasing territory radius, each new pyramid increases territory radius. Actor variations can give them a nice variation in look, like houses have nice variations.

Should investigate a way to make these pyramids auto-research the phase techs. See if that's possible with the current codes or ask the wfg team to give the engine this feature. If it's possible, then the portraits for these pyramids can be the phase portraits -- II, III, etc. The II pyramids can be smaller and the III pyramids larger and more ornament. Build Two II-pyramids and doo-doo-doo Phase II auto-researches. Then build three III-pyramids and doo-doo-doo, Phase III auto-researches.

 

 

*In DE I use the wonder as the prerequisite for Phase IV, Empire Phase. If you don't include wonder, I'll just reuse the Ptolemy wonder for this purpose, no problem. 

Edited February 21, 2017 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[balduin]

@Sundiata Nice, that you moved successfully back to Belgium.

About the marketplace. Since you kind of agree with me, but you have some issues could you provide an updated description how the marketplace could have looked like. I would like to place the description in the specification. You could also write the description directly into the specification.tex file. Additionally, a picture or two would be nice too.

Regarding the Nubian archers and feathers. I like the idea, that the units get feathers based on experience. However, 0 A.D. does not have an experience system. The alternative in 0 A.D. could be to have three technology archer training level. Every time, we research a new training level all Nubian archer get one more feather. Getting a feather means an increase in damage, accuracy and fire rate.

What can the player develop / train in the temple (of Amun)?

Till now the player would be able to train: priests and  “warriors of Amun”, a champion unit. Additionally, the metal production technology bonus could be developed in the temple.

 

 

[LordGood]

5 hours ago, balduin said:

However, 0 A.D. does not have an experience system.

'Chu talkin 'bout?

0 AD does have a unit experience system that levels units up to veteran and elite ranks as they fight. 

[balduin]

@LordGood Thanks for correcting me, I was not aware of it. How can I see what experience level a unit has in 0 A.D.?

Edited February 22, 2017 by balduin

[LordGood]

The stripes indicating rank are at the top left corner of the unit portrait

[Tomcelmare]

I still think the unit experience system is too slow though...that's why players could choose at the fortress whether to dope the champions with extra attack points, or enable the civil units to get experience faster/instantaneously (like the system used in delenda est)...

[Lion.Kanzen]

12 hours ago, balduin said:

@Sundiata Nice, that you moved successfully back to Belgium.

 0 A.D. does not have an experience system. The alternative in 0 A.D. could be to have three technology archer training level. Every time, we research a new training level all Nubian archer get one more feather. Getting a feather means an increase in damage, accuracy and fire rate.

 

 

http://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/XML.Entity.Traits.Promotion

[Sundiata]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone Sounds a little complicated. Why not just 1 pyramid for town phase, 2 pyramids for city phase? And territory bonus for the civic center where the pyramid/pyramids are built.

Temple Meroe 250

fig. 121  Another interesting structure (eligible for wonder or special building) from Meroe is the temple "Meroe 250" (M250). It is colloquially, yet erroneously known as the Sun Temple. Possibly a commemorative temple to victory (it's walls were covered in reliefs of military scenes, triumphant soldiers and bound captives). 

 

 

Some more images of temples to Amun

fig. 122  Taharqa's temple to Amun at Kawa

 

fig. 123  The almost identical temple to Amun at Sanam, on the left. On the right is a ram statue (representing Amun, protecting a smaller image of Taharqa, from the processional entrance road to the Amun temple at Kawa. 

 

fig. 124 & 125  The Amun Temple at Naqa (Naga)

 

 @balduin "Additionally, the metal production technology bonus could be developed in the temple [to Amun]." I agree with this.. 

 

@balduin I don't know exactly how to describe the market other than colorful and chaotic. They would have made use of modest brick columns , wooden poles and sticks, palm branches and textiles. I searched for some slightly less generic contemporary Nubian marketplaces from Aswan:

fig. 126, 127, 128

 

 

Edited May 28, 2017 by Sundiata