My impressions and ideas

[Sundiata]

Hello there, long time following, first time posting.

 

I’d like to start of by thanking everybody involved in the development of this marvelous game, for doing such an amazing job. The game has been an absolute a joy to play, is loads of fun, and is a more than worthy successor to AOE. In fact I’d go so far as to say it’s way better, and has great potential for becoming even better.

 

Secondly, I’d like to apologize for what might be a rather lengthy post, full of stuff you’ve probably read a million times before, so please bear with me. The reason I might repeat some stuff already brought up in various other topics and discussions, is simply to give some more weight to certain already existing ideas. Also, I’m not a coder or programmer, and could never do what you guys have pulled off.

 

I’ve been playing this game for many years now (almost exclusively single player) and have seen it transform from the buggy, earlier alpha’s when building walls was still a mere fantasy, to the beautiful gem it is today. And I know many years before I even heard of this game, many people were dedicated, and have worked tirelessly to bringing this dream alive. Again, I applaud you all!

 

I just wanted to leave my impressions, ideas and suggestions about this game, as a first time poster. I understand that many things in this game are the way they are for a reason, and I might not always know this reason, so please forgive my noobishness. I do not wish to step on any ones toes, so feel free to disregard any point I raise. I understand they might not all be realistic or feasible, neither do I expect any of them to be implemented. Just my personal thoughts and ideas.

 

So, here I go:

 

1)   AI : I love the AI, for mainly 1 reason. It poses a genuine challenge, which always keeps things interesting. Having said that, I know it’s still a work in progress, and has many glitches. I feel that the AI needs certain basic protocols, that seem logical for a human, which are overlooked. For example, when the AI attacks (early in the game) with a large force, but gets defeated, it will quickly send another, usually inferior force as a second wave, and so on. I think the AI should always hold off an attack, until it’s numbers are stronger than the previous failed attack. This would help with the perception that the AI is just overly aggressive without any reason or logic. Also, it tends to keep attacking the same positions over and over again, which makes placing fortifications a no-brainer. If it gets defeated at the same location for more than 3 times, it should really automatically start thinking about attacking form another (less fortified) angle. I would also love to see it build new “towns” in conquered territories, so it isn’t so vulnerable when attacked at it’s “capital”, as well as build walls to protect its “investments”.  It would be really nice to see the AI build a planned and highly concentrated, walled area. Also, gatherers in general, whether AI, or your own, should never forage in enemy territory, unless explicitly ordered to do so. Neither should troops belonging to the AI nor yourself, decide (on their own accord) to attack enemy units when those enemy units are in their own territory, by default. I hate those accidental skirmishes that end up being Armageddon type battles for survival.

 

2)   Scale: I love everything on a large scale, as I am sure many of you do to. I regularly play with a population of over 2000 in late game (although lag becomes unbearable at that point), and I am genuinely impressed with the ability of the game to handle so many units. But as technology evolves, processors become more powerful, bugs are fixed and the mechanics of the game are streamlined, I would love to see even more, even grander things. Bigger, more realistic maps, able to support populations of thousands on either side, with ease… No fixed population caps anymore. I know… I’m a dreamer…

 

3)   Citizen soldiers : I know it’s a controversial subject, so I’m sorry to bring it up. I believe, as many others that this original feature is actually historically inaccurate, and compromises the potential for amazing gameplay. Having a larger civilian population from which you recruit military units would be much more realistic, and interesting. You can retain the citizen soldiers, but they should never exceed the “civilian population” (which includes slaves and serfs), which have historically always been (significantly) larger in every civilization featured in 0AD.

 

4)   Economy & Population: I believe economy is the least developed aspect of the game, and I feel that it could be made a lot more immersive, and realistic, without necessarily becoming needlessly complicated. Try to think of an arcade version of the old classics like Pharaoh, or Ceasar, The Settlers III & IV, but also more contemporary games like banished or the Anno series. 0AD fundamentally differs form these games in that it is a base-builder, and not a city builder. But I think it can be a lot more than “just” a base builder. Perhaps a town builder. Imagine reserving micromanagement of units specifically for military units. Instead of micro managing hundreds of individual, static units, imagine managing a working population, automatically going about their assigned jobs, governed by an AI. Workplaces that need laborers, markets that need produce to sell, raw materials that need to be transported to the “industries” that need them. A population that needs “services”, like taverns and pubs, cultural venues like theatres, temples and shrines to different gods, courthouses etc... A population that naturally expands through immigration and new births (as long as new, or upgraded housing is provided). How about a coin based system, in which wood, food, metal and stone are only some of the many goods produced, and required for building, upgrading and recruiting. Things like leather, linen, wool, milk, coal, clay (for making bricks and pottery), fabrics, jewelry, a variety of agricultural products, fish, tools etc… And all these goods would have a coin value. I also think having fixed, non-depletable resource points would be an extremely interesting  thing from a strategic point of view. It would give you, the player, and the AI a really good reason to fight. Resources such as metal (which I’d rather see split in gold and Iron ore), should be mined from set locations, in some rocky hills, or alluvial mine fields. Farming should only be done on fertile lands (as opposed to the middle of the desert (which is possible now). Hunting on hunting grounds, where game automatically replenishes (through new births). Stone from a stone quarry. Logs from forests that slowly grow back over time, fish from anywhere in the ocean. All these things don’t just deplete in real life, so why should they in the game? Rather than managing finite resources, you should manage the constant supply and demand of resources and goods. Why not introduce fixed trade routes, not unlike AOEIII, where foreign traders are spawned at the edge of the map, and travel to the other edge trading at available trading posts as they go. And all this economic activity should bring in direct revenue, (e.g. goldmine or export of specialized goods), or indirect revenue in the form of taxes (coin), which would in turn be used to maintain services, building projects, research and your military.  

 

5)   Maps : I love many of the maps in the game, and many have clearly been made with a lot of care and attention to detail. All I can say is that I prefer the most realistic looking maps, with real topographical features and diverse biotopes. Also, the bigger the better. I feel that on larger maps, attacking your enemies feels like a real campaign. Small maps feel unbearably unrealistic to me. Who builds their town right next to their enemies’ town?? Anyway, realism, naturalism and size are definitely the way to go for 0AD’s maps.

 

6)   Buildings : I love diversity in a game, and I think 0AD could use (even) more diversity in building types and variations. With a more expanded and advanced economy come many new specialized buildings from which new technologies can be researched. Also more eye-candy, such as decorations, statues, parks and plazas are always welcome to jazz up your town. The ultimate goal should be to create a beautiful and realistic looking, functional town, bustling with life, on one hand, and conquering your enemies town(s) on the other hand. Adding animations to any building that has employees or is garrisoned, together with the hustle and bustle of raw materials and finished goods being whisked back and forth from storage yards to workplaces, would really bring the town alive. I think houses should be able to upgrade (just 3 levels in total) based on the services you’ve provided in your city. Higher level houses can then accommodate a higher population.  Also, I think the building “barracks” should be split in to 3 distinct buildings: “Melee Infantry barracks”, “Ranged infantry barracks” and “Stables”. I think that would make more sense. Stables should always be necessary before recruiting cavalry. Some more buildings for variety and economic realism could include a siege workshop, Iron smelter, weapon smith, tool smith, leatherworks, weavers, storage yard, granary, slaughterhouse, herbalist, huntinglodge, fresh-water well, a variety of differentiated farms, claypit, brickmaker, potter, jeweler, work-camp, logging-camp, sawmill, charcoal maker, and of course, every city/town needs a proper palace, as well as a central (ceremonial) square. But mainly a palace…

 

7)   Military : I won’t say much about this subject, because I know it is still a work in progress. All that I will say is that the Total War series, by far, have some of the most realistic battle mechanics of any game. It would be really awesome to see a simplified (arcade) version of those mechanics implemented in this game.

 

8)   Random stuff : Why is the wonder for the Celts Stonehenge? Don’t get me wrong, I think it is one of the prettiest  wonders in the game, but lacks historical accuracy. Stonehenge was originally erected more than 2 millennia prior to the arrival of Celtic culture in Great Britain. I know that no more civilizations will be added to the current game, but I’d still like to argue for the official inclusion of the Chinese, as well as the kingdom of Kush, whose capital was ancient Meroe (the Nubians). The Chinese traded extensively (though indirectly) with the Mediterranean world, as well as with Mauryan India, the Middle Eastern states and East Africa, including Kush, establishing official diplomatic relations with many of them. The Kingdom of Kush also traded directly with Ptolemaic Egypt, the Middle Eastern states, India and later with Rome itself, being one of the largest centers of steel production in the ancient world. The Kushites also actively waged wars against Ptolemaic Egypt, Rome and Persia, directly anchoring it in the same geopolitical sphere of influence. They built (modestly sized) pyramids, large Egyptian style temple complexes, complex urban centers, employed war elephants (sometimes imported from India), developed distinct writing systems and many more exciting things. Often overlooked in other games, the Kushites would really add some beautiful diversity to an already beautiful game. I believe the Ptolemaic faction should have more Hellenistic characteristics, and its current ancient Egyptian look, would suit the Kushites better, who copied many ancient Egyptian elements in their culture.

 

If you managed to read through all that, congratulations. I thank you for your patience and interest. I’d like to reiterate that I know that many of my suggestions may not be feasible. I just wanted to share my personal dreams for 0 A.D. What I think would make this game one of the greatest in history J

 

[Stan`]

Hello and welcome to the forums.

I apologize in advance for not answering the whole post. While I touch a lot of things as a modder i'll leave balancing and some other matters for the others.

I'm quite surprised you manage to play with 2000 pop. Just curious what are your specs ?

About citizen soldiers. While for romans I agree with you for gauls it makes total sense to me that the ones building villages are the ones who fight. Gauls weren't even a faction they were just random tribes just like celts represent all the barbarians of europe at once (source british museum)

About the fact of adding more buildings and especially eyecandy I'd suggest you'd turn yourself toward mods such as delenda est.

About the inclusion of ROTE the main issue is this one of the more complete mods which makes it a good example. I am however inclined for it to be included as another faction as I along with niektb and ayakashi made most of it.

About the Kush faction by looking at some internet sources I can't really see how it differs from ptolemies architecturally speaking.

Were it to become a mod someday i'd say youd need a pretty strong design document on the art side at least to make it interesting.

[Lion.Kanzen]

I said before tobevolve entity farms to become industrial from empires and gain little metal income.

[Libervurto]

You ask for a lot of things without giving much reasoning.  Yes, the things you suggest would add a lot of colour to the game but do they add any depth?  How would your proposed additions impact on the game?  Think about these things when making suggestions, and be careful not to just ask for bigger and better versions of what already exists without explaining exactly what it is you want to change and your reasons why you think this is important.

Two ideas I will focus on because they stood out to me: permanent/replenishing resources, and animating garrisoned buildings.

Animated buildings I think is a great idea, a very nice, intuitive visual indicator that a building is garrisoned.

Permanent/Replenishing Resources, you argue that fish stocks and forests regenerate in real life so why not in game?  What purpose does it serve to try to emulate real life?  Does this serve the game?  This is not a good reason to promote an idea, be careful asking for realism or you might get what you wish for and will have to organise the disposal of all your 2000 citizens poop!  Instead ask how it affects the game to have finite resources versus infinite resources, and try to determine which option makes for the best game.  One problem is that with infinite resources the game could potentially never end.  With infinite resources the issue of supply would change from quantities of resources to rates of harvesting, how would this be imposed upon the player?  For example, perhaps the more you fish a certain fish stock the slower it regenerates.  What about maturity?  Maybe it takes time for new trees to grow and replace the ones you cut down, perhaps aggressively cutting down a forest of mature trees would even help younger trees to grow faster in the open space?  So forests could have the opposite replenishment behaviour to fish, the more depleted they become the faster they replenish.

You see how I am thinking about how the game works first, then drifting off into ideas that echo the real world, then pulling back to try and adjust these ideas to fit into the game and see how we could, in a simple way, get some of the feeling of those real world ideas without needed to simulate them completely?

I hope you do not think I am being patronising.  I give this advice because I see you are full of ideas but I think your ideas could use a little direction.

[Finchj]

20 hours ago, Sundiata said:

All these things don’t just deplete in real life, so why should they in the game?

Oh, but they do. Human activity was depleting many of these resources, and quite severely, even in ancient times. Besides archeological evidence, contemporary sources even mention the environmental damage. Just one example of this would be the rise of Macedon through its trade in timber with Athens in particular. By the time of Alexander, much of Attica was deforested, with the accompanying erosion, drying of springs, and declining agricultural production. The building of the first Athenian fleets and charcoal production to keep the mines of Laurion in operation had wrecked Attica. When you combine deforestation with a climate that only receives rainfall during a small period of the year, you don't get regeneration, you get desertification. Even today the Greek government struggles to plant forests in many areas of Greece. 

Macedon, on the other hand, had access to larger forests and much of that territory was higher in elevation and received more rainfall. They happily traded timber to the more established, dominant Greek states while consolidating their control over that region of Greece. Of course, one can't lay the rise of Macedon entirely at the feet of environmental damage by other Greek states, but it played quite a large role. There are a few books on the subject, for example Environmental Problems of the Greeks and Romans: Ecology in the Ancient Mediterranean by J. Donald Hughes is a good place to start if you are interested (for the record, I studied classical Greece at the university).

If one wants realism in the economy of the game, then each biome would need to behave by different rules. I think this would be needlessly complicated and confusing for people to remember. Also, the game doesn't have any passage of time. We already have to suspend belief that you can plant a farm and start harvesting in minutes... I think that planting trees is a neat idea, but growing usable timber in the context of a game that lasts about 30-45 minutes is something else.

Don't get me wrong, many of these ideas are great, but are more suited to a mod. The game would be totally different than it is today. Personally, I'd love an Anno 1602 meets 0AD, but I don't see it happening officially. 

Edit: For what its worth, some of these ideas could be implemented in some fashion and could help diversify gameplay or enjoyment, like animated buildings or Lion's suggestion to have "cash crop" plantations to generate coin.

Edited December 25, 2016 by Finchj

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

18 hours ago, Finchj said:

"cash crop" plantations to generate coin.

Let's discover what this can be for each civ.

 

Athenians: olive grove

Rome: grape vineyard

Others: ?

Edited December 26, 2016 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Finchj]

4 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Let's discover what this can be for each civ.

 

Athenians: olive grove

Rome: grape vineyard

Others: ?

Two ideas for that:

1) Give each civ, or groups of civs, two/three plantations that visually grow something different, but function the same, for appearances (like varying farm textures), based on something they were known for (like vineyards and olives). So when you click the plantation build icon, it randomly selects from one of the crops.

2) Assign a set of random plantations to each biome. That way we don't wind up with Persians planting date palms on a snow map or Gauls growing apples in the Sahara.

Here's a list of "cash crops" that I'll group both ways:

Mediterranean (Athens, Sparta, Macedon, Rome, Iberia, Carthage):

• Olives 
• Grape Vines (note, grapes were often grown up trees like olives or even Elm (Ulmus) trees that were kept small)
• Figs

Desert (Persia, Seleucids, Ptolemies):

• Date Palms
• Pomegranates
• Lemons

South Asian (Mauryans):

• Cotton
• Sugarcane
• Black Pepper

Temperate (Gauls, Britons):

• Apples
• Hemp
• Barley

All biomes:

• Honey Bees (could have an aura boosting food and metal production from farms/plantations) Edit: this could be an upgrade/tech that gives a visual change once researched so we don't add another building.

One additional idea: allow for metal gathering from water too. Some of these might work better as civ specific abilities.

Stationary nodes:

• Clams (pearls)
• Sea snails (purple dye)
• Sponges
• Oysters

Migratory nodes:

• Whales
• Seals
• Sea Turtles
• Sturgeon

Note: initially harvested by fishing boats only, but could have a tech that allows trading boats to harvest them- the bonus there being they can carry more

Shoreline buildings that must be garrisoned with either citizen soldiers or traders:

• Tuna (Iberian almadraba)
• "Salt mine" (Britons, Gauls)
• Fish farm (Rome, goatfish production for banquets=luxury item)

Lastly, just continuing with the marine theme, but for food: allow hunting and fishing of shoreline creatures. Ptolemies could get some bonuses here.

Hunting:

• Ducks
• Geese

Fishing:

• Eels
• Small fish (cast nets)
• Crabs

(One last edit: also would be nice if fishing boats could build fish traps like in AOE2)

Edited December 26, 2016 by Finchj

[Sundiata]

Hi, thank you all for reading my post and taking the time to reply. I forgot to mention what I liked most about this game. And that’s the open source nature of this project. The fact that anyone from anywhere can add contributions, and share their thoughts or ideas, and that they will be heard. You are really a lovely community to follow.

 

@Stanislas69: My specs are actually quite laughable. I have a standard 2011 macbook pro 

Processor  2,3 GHz Intel Core i5

Memory  4 GB 1333 MHz DDR3

Graphics  Intel HD Graphics 3000 384 MB

Software  Mac OS X Lion 10.7.5 (11G63)

To be honest, lag becomes noticeable when more than 200 units start moving at the same time, and becomes unpleasant to play when there’s about 500 moving units. I just like to have several “standing armies” of 200 men in different locations around the map, and like to test how many units I can recruit before I’m “forced” to quit. But with a population cap of 300, the game runs surprisingly smooth.

 

Well, even in Gaul, the majority of the population were peasants, “commoners” and slaves who never actually saw military action. Celtic society was ruled by a Celtic elite, kings, nobles and princes, who each ruled their own tribe and oppidum. These tribes could form kingdoms and powerful states. What the exact relation between these Celtic elites and their subjects was, is still a matter of great debate, but it does seem that combat was generally reserved for some kind of elevated class of warriors, derived from the nobility. Even among the Gauls, the majority of the population were non-combatants. Also, in their (proto-) urban centers, like Bibracte or Heuneburg, Celts actually built concentrated rectangular housing, with wooden shingle roofing, as opposed to thatched roofing.

 

Thank you for the advice on mods. ROTE looks beautiful! I really hope it gets officially included. Great work!

 

Kushites differ from Ptolemies in that they have a much stronger Sub Saharan influence, along with preserving ancient Egyptian culture, styles of building and aesthetics. Ptolemies were really a Hellenistic faction, set in Egypt. That doesn’t make them Egyptian. Alexandria, the capital was a major center of Greek culture, not Egyptian. The housing was predominantly Greek style, as in the other two main centers of Ptolemaic culture, “Neucratis” and “Ptolemais Hermiou”. I think the Ancient Egyptian look should be reserved for the Kushites (with some added Sub-Saharan elements), and the Ptolemies should look much more Greek, with some Egyptian influence (mainly the temple). I’ll think about making a design document, but I’ve seen topics on Nubians before, so I’ll check that out first.

 

@Lion.Kanzen: I think “cash crop plantations” is an absolutely fantastic idea. An alternate source of metal for the late game. Should really spice things up.

 

@Libervurto: I don’t think your advice was patronizing at all. Thank you for some useful insights. I know I’m a bit of a megalomaniac. I always want to see things grander and grander!

 

True, that infinite resources would (considerably) lengthen the game. But that’s just one of it’s charms. I think 0AD has much more to offer than 15min skirmishes. The unnecessary, obsessive rush to crush your enemies makes that you can’t really take your time to enjoy the details of the game. It can make for a stressful experience if you just want to get a nice town up and running, before having to fight for dear life, less than 10 min in to it. But maybe a midway option is more attractive. In terms of the forrest growing back: for every 2 trees that are cut, 1 tree grows back. Then wood doesn't deplete so fast, but still depletes eventually. Or perhaps, cut trees can be replanted by a forester, to which you must assign (a max number of) units. I think fishing should have a steady (yet lower) income, than farming. This would prevent harbors and their fishing-boats from becoming useless once the fish are depleted. I think having considerable metal and stone deposits in central (neutral) areas of the maps, could create realistic, natural, battle hotspots. Areas of the map you need to colonize and defend in order to develop and grow. This nurtures strategic thinking. This is opposed to the quick, tactical exploitation and exhaustion of scarce metal and stone deposits, which makes expanding and defending territory a useless exercise once these deposits have been exhausted. I’m talking about the motivation to fight. Especially when all the resources have been depleted, what are you still fighting for? What is the AI fighting for? I understand this only applies in late-game, but that's when I really have my fun.     

 

@Finchj: I stand corrected. Of course natural resources can deplete over time. I guess I meant to comment on the unusually fast rate at which especially mines, and fish stocks are depleted in this game. Some mines have been mined for thousands of years. They don’t usually deplete in a single generation, and they have always been sources of conflict, which is interesting for this game. It gives you something to fight over. I think fishing should be more akin to farming, where you have a slow but steady income of food, for every fishing spot, fished by a set maximum amount of fishing boats (maybe max 2 boats per fishing spot). This would provide you with another reason to achieve naval dominance. Anyway, thank you for your educated response. I didn’t know Macedon benefited from Greek environmental crisis. Interesting…

 

@wowgetoffyourcellphone and @Finchj : I think your ideas are good!

 

Simple version could be “cash crop plantation” or industry for each civ:

 

Athenians, Spartans, Macedonians: Olive Grove

Carthage: Olive grove (or perhaps “international trade embassy”)

Romans, Ptolemies: Vinyard

Gaul: Hemp plantation  

Iberians: Horse breeder

Persians: Cotton plantation

Mauryans: Cinnamon plantation

Seleucids: Date palm plantation

Chinese: Silk production center

 

These would provide you with a modest metal income in the late game, when traders become your only other viable option for metal. They are also less vulnerable than traders, which is why traders should still be more profitable. Also, maybe limit their number to max 5 per player, so you can't just spam them.

 

I also like Finchj’s second set of ideas. 

 

Edited December 27, 2016 by Sundiata

[Libervurto]

I have similar thoughts about the pace of the game.  I'd love a game mode where maintaining my own civilisation is more the focus than destroying my enemies.

Here are my thoughts, building upon your ideas.

Regeneration & Seasons - I've changed my mind about the growth rate for trees, it should probably be the same as fish, growth accelerating in proportion to the current quantity.

Individual animals could have a random chance of spawning babies, which would mature with time (luckily, nature runs on a pretty strict clock, so breeding and maturing could be done with global counters, like the seasons).  Animals would also have to die of old age (I guess this would just be a random chance during the "death" season).  Here's how I see it happening (while trying to keep things as simple as possible): at the start of spring, randomly selected mature animals give birth, at the midpoint of winter a random selection of animals die, young and mature alike (midwinter will become an obviously sensible time for deaths if seasonal weather is implemented).  Any newborns that make it through to spring will mature, but maturation is done after births, so these newly mature animals wont have a chance to breed until the following year.

The seasons could also effect the regeneration rates of fish and trees: summer being a time of accelerated growth, and winter being the opposite.

The spring could also be a time when trees with max wood spawn saplings nearby.  This would be a random number of saplings at random positions near the parent tree.  The position would be completely random and if there is no free space at that position then the sapling simply fails to take root.  This would usually be a "bug" but for this purpose it actually works nicely because it creates a natural rate of expansion for forests, and means you'd want to keep your forests relatively far from built up areas.

(Fruit bushes could operate the same way.)

Harvest Controls - With these regeneration effects in place, we need to stop our workers from completely depleting organic resources but still be able to order them to be cleared to make space for building.  (I went through at least half a dozen ideas trying to think of something sensible for this!)  When you assign a worker to harvest wood from a tree, with at least 1/2 its maximum, the worker will gather wood until the tree is down to 1/4, they will then automatically leave it to regrow.  Workers will never automatically harvest trees with less than 1/2 capacity.  If you assign a worker to harvest a tree that is below 1/2 this will command the worker to clear the tree entirely (which could have a special cursor icon to indicate this to the player).

(I toyed with the idea of setting your own percentages to harvest, or even have settings for each worker, but that all seems too complicated.)

Potentially, (code gods willing) if you wanted to clear a tree with over 1/2 wood, you could click to harvest and then shift-click to harvest the same tree again, exploiting the already-implemented task queue to automatically give the order to clear the tree once it is down to 1/4 remaining wood (and the worker has stopped harvesting it).

(The same rules would apply to all other organic resources.)

Growth: Area Effects - I had some ideas about area effects but I'm not sure how taxing they would be on the engine.

Trees could boost nearby growth of fellow trees, farms and animals, while all buildings—except the farmstead—reduce the growth rate.  This would encourage lining farms with rows of trees, like real farmers do, and planting forests away from developed areas.
I don't like this idea any more.

Mines & Quarries - We need to make these resources last to keep up with the organics.  My suggestion is that each mine/quarry has several layers of resources.  To access these additional layers you must research new technologies.  The layers could be quite varied in size, so you might, for example, have a mine that at first is very productive but then in the mid-game yields almost nothing, but in the late game yields a huge volume.  This would make it important to keep scouting around as the game progresses; new resources could seem to pop out of nowhere because their initial layers were very small or non-existent.

Idle Chatter - At the moment, idle workers do literally nothing.  My suggestion is to make idlers wander about a bit at their own will and form groups with other idlers and talk to each other (with some little animation).  This has the advantage of getting them out of the way of workers, stops them blocking access to buildings, and groups them together so it's much easier to put them all to work.  Also, this allows for more sinister mechanics like in my next point.

Dissenters & Rebels - If we're going to be focusing on maintaining our own civilisation then let's make things interesting!  Randomly (or based on something I haven't thought of yet ) some of your workers may become dissenters; this means they may randomly stop working and go idle from time to time.  Dissenters can spread their dissent but only to other idle workers—so keep your workers busy!

If enough dissenters group together they will revolt against you and become rebels, their faction will change to "[Your Civilisation] Rebels" and they will either attack you or flee to set up their own base.  Rebel factions can do everything a normal faction can, with time you could even become allies with them.

There is only one way to quash dissent: you need to execute the dissenters, but executions will give any surviving dissenters an easier time converting idle workers to their cause.  Here is the part where you become very paranoid about whether your idle workers are guilty only of finishing their tasks or if they are causing unrest in your city!  Maybe you need to keep a closer eye on things and see who is abandoning their tasks.

Names - I love games that generate random names for each unit.  It really helps to create your own story through the course of a game—and would greatly help in identifying those pesky dissenters.  We could have culturally relevant names for citizens and soldiers, and even have special names for our ships.  It would add a nice touch of flavour.

Edited December 28, 2016 by Libervurto
strike out "Growth: Area Effects"

[Palaiogos]

On December 26, 2016 at 5:08 AM, Finchj said:

Two ideas for that:

1) Give each civ, or groups of civs, two/three plantations that visually grow something different, but function the same, for appearances (like varying farm textures), based on something they were known for (like vineyards and olives). So when you click the plantation build icon, it randomly selects from one of the crops.

2) Assign a set of random plantations to each biome. That way we don't wind up with Persians planting date palms on a snow map or Gauls growing apples in the Sahara.

Here's a list of "cash crops" that I'll group both ways:

Mediterranean (Athens, Sparta, Macedon, Rome, Iberia, Carthage):

• Olives 
• Grape Vines (note, grapes were often grown up trees like olives or even Elm (Ulmus) trees that were kept small)
• Figs

Desert (Persia, Seleucids, Ptolemies):

• Date Palms
• Pomegranates
• Lemons

South Asian (Mauryans):

• Cotton
• Sugarcane
• Black Pepper

Temperate (Gauls, Britons):

• Apples
• Hemp
• Barley

All biomes:

• Honey Bees (could have an aura boosting food and metal production from farms/plantations) Edit: this could be an upgrade/tech that gives a visual change once researched so we don't add another building.

One additional idea: allow for metal gathering from water too. Some of these might work better as civ specific abilities.

Stationary nodes:

• Clams (pearls)
• Sea snails (purple dye)
• Sponges
• Oysters

Migratory nodes:

• Whales
• Seals
• Sea Turtles
• Sturgeon

Note: initially harvested by fishing boats only, but could have a tech that allows trading boats to harvest them- the bonus there being they can carry more

Shoreline buildings that must be garrisoned with either citizen soldiers or traders:

• Tuna (Iberian almadraba)
• "Salt mine" (Britons, Gauls)
• Fish farm (Rome, goatfish production for banquets=luxury item)

Lastly, just continuing with the marine theme, but for food: allow hunting and fishing of shoreline creatures. Ptolemies could get some bonuses here.

Hunting:

• Ducks
• Geese

Fishing:

• Eels
• Small fish (cast nets)
• Crabs

(One last edit: also would be nice if fishing boats could build fish traps like in AOE2)

What does this add to the game? Not being trivial, but I think it might bloat the game up for people who want to play the game. Keep it simple and just have farms, and "cash crop" farms. Cash crop farms also need to cost food in addition to wood to make up for their usefulness too.

[Finchj]

3 hours ago, Palaiogos said:

What does this add to the game? Not being trivial, but I think it might bloat the game up for people who want to play the game. Keep it simple and just have farms, and "cash crop" farms. Cash crop farms also need to cost food in addition to wood to make up for their usefulness too.

It fleshes out Lion's idea about cash plantations. Basically the same as a farm with a different texture that generates metal. These plantation's wouldn't create new resources- "apples" or "cotton" would simply be textures the same way certain biomes have different trees and animals. I think having an alternative method to generate metal late game besides running trade carts would be nice, but the idea needs balancing since creating towns that can never run out of food or metal might be annoying if one plays with walls. At any rate, it simply offers an idea as to what those cash crop farms would look like in game. It would be much easier to distinguish them from regular farms this way.

Having the ability to harvest metal from ocean sources would add depth to gameplay on naval maps.  There would be greater emphasis on building ships and controlling the sea if one could "mine" metal from the ocean. 

I think both of these ideas add a dimension to the game that could be pushed even further, maybe the plantations could offer a trading bonus. Different civs could also gain bonuses for these things; Carthage for instance might gain a civ bonus for gathering metal from sea sources. Ptolomies could be even better at plantation gathering.

[Lion.Kanzen]

generates most than one resource, that's the key.

[Loki1950]

2 hours ago, Finchj said:

if one could "mine" metal from the ocean.

Sorry even we current technological people do not really do that and the technology for it did not exist in till the early 18th century apart from salvaging ships even then only on shorelines no deep diving.

Enjoy the Choice

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Loki1950 said:

Sorry even we current technological people do not really do that and the technology for it did not exist in till the early 18th century apart from salvaging ships even then only on shorelines no deep diving.

Enjoy the Choice

I think he was using metaphor. It is not really mining metal from the ocean, it just represent the other tradable resource captured or harvest from the bountiful sea.

[Loki1950]

Then the proper metaphor is harvesting the sea

Enjoy the Choice

[Finchj]

Loki1950, quotations are often used around single words to demonstrate a loose use of the word. If you read my initial post in this thread, it is pretty clear that I don't intend for actual mining of metal from the ocean. Using the word "mine" to describe harvesting/gathering from water based resources works because the function in game is directly analogous to mining ore deposits on land. A unit that has the ability to "mine" goes to the node, works at a certain rate that can be modified via techs, bonuses, auras, then automatically returns to a drop off point and metal is deposited. Since the only difference is language, putting the term mine in quotations references their similarity while also indicating that the term isn't quite right, as one can see from the previous sentence where I did use the word harvest, but without quotations.

[Libervurto]

https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/21523-my-impressions-and-ideas/&do=findComment&comment=324399

No thoughts on these ideas?

Edited January 8, 2017 by Libervurto
replaced full quote with link

[Lion.Kanzen]

27 minutes ago, Libervurto said:

No thoughts on these ideas?

The only worriy is about performance.

[FeXoR]

Hi @Libervurto

While we value your thoughts and input please don't quote pages of your own posts. That makes it harder to read through the forum.

If you must quote yourself please use a link to that post instead.

(On every post at the top right you should see an triangle like icon if you hoover your cursor over there and it should have a tooltip "Share this post". Rightclicking on it your browser should provide an option to copy the linked URL. Pasting that in a post will - by default - show an abstrakt of that post. Removing autoformatting makes it the link with the link itself as text - which should do and is even shorter.)

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, Libervurto said:

No thoughts on these ideas?

I like many of your  ideas.

@elexis can be easy to implement this? Beyond beta may be? 

[elexis]

I'm passing this ping on to @fatherbushido 

[Sundiata]

I like all of the ideas mentioned. But thinking more about 0 A.D. I have started realizing more and more how difficult some of the "logistical" challenges are in implementing any of them. Because of that, I'm inclined to just stick to the idea of cash crops. If that idea could get worked out and be successfully put in the game, I think it would ad a lot! Sometimes it's better to do just a few things, and do them very good, than it is to do many things, but not so well. 

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Thinking of gameplay, I'm not too much sure about cash crops, because metal mines are supposed to be a limited resource to make fight over between players. And if you start to run out of metal mine, you can trade for the metal with vulnerable trade route that can be raided. A cash crop thing can just sit behind your walls and generate metal without danger or fighting over it. Just some thoughts.

[Sundiata]

That's very true. But I was thinking more about diversification, giving options. I definitely think cash crops should be seriously limited, to prevent that kind of turteling. It's just that when metal runs out, which I think is relatively fast, armies quickly become low-grade, and it would be nice to have at least a few champion units for the final showdown. There's just no fun in defeating an utterly impoverished enemy.   

[GunChleoc]

About Stonehenge being the Briton wonder: Do you have any suggestions what we might use instead? It would need to be an impressive building, and nobody has found one that we might use so far.