proGUI

[seeh]

On 09/03/2023 at 11:45 AM, Kampot said:

When feature is available to EVERYONE it is not cheating but it is game feature. Use your words wisely. 

Also any new features usually comes from smart people. It is kind of automation (easing manual repetive tasks) and focus more on strategy. Usually this is how game should evolve.

It cannot be considered as cheating. 

Cheating is what gives you advantage and you don't have access to it.

i like your arguments. if you start playing or join a rated game you should/must explain that you use this mod. BTW i was creating today testing/playing with ProGui here: https://youtu.be/zBLEKEd7UuQ

 

[Yekaterina]

Sometimes the ProGUI causes corruptions in replays, for example random OOS error for the spectator.

Bugs aside, it's a nice idea that allows you to divert your attention into fighting instead of eco, which can be helpful if you are rushing or fighting. However, it is certainly not a cheat.

• You cannot generate resources for free using this mod (gift from the gods).
• You cannot instantly train or build (unlike Han super CC bug).
• You cannot see anything that you shouldn't be seeing (no revealed enemy chat; no revealing enemy base/stats)

Therefore it is just a helpful automation.

 

Regarding AbstractGUI, Mainland and its animals look more alien than Star Wars, but sometimes I have to turn it on if the host decides to use some non-standard map with rampant vegetation or blindingly white snow terrain.

[Atrik]

Hey @seeh! From your video, I guess you are probably using a very old version, that had some bugs (or more then latest at least lol).

The maintained version can be found on gitlab:
https://gitlab.com/4trik/proGUI

If you make a tutorial video on it, it could be soo cool!

But I think you may have missed on some of the features, I'd love to show you when you have a minute.

[panda]

I started to use this mod and it's great.

The features that I like are
- display of idle important building in GUI
- army composition in GUI
- composition of idle units in GUI, and ability to select each group
I think the devs should consider adding these to the game.

The features that I don't use are auto-research, quick-start, and auto-tribute.

@Atrik Rather than having auto-research, I was thinking to create a simple reminder mod. The problem with getting old is that you forget things. Sometimes I forget to do any army upgrade, or to farm upgrade, or even to move to p2. So the idea is to set a simple alarm according to the game time, then I can use it to create any reminder I want. Unfortunately, I don't have the skills to write this mod.

[Atrik]

19 minutes ago, panda said:

@Atrik Rather than having auto-research, I was thinking to create a simple reminder mod. The problem with getting old is that you forget things. Sometimes I forget to do any army upgrade, or to farm upgrade, or even to move to p2.

Thanks @panda! If you don't use auto-research, you may still have your forges showing up as idle buildings when no techs are queued, on the idle building tab. How exactly do you imagine the reminder to look like instead?




It's not just you forgetting stuff btw, I started this mod because I was always forgetting to tribute allies, or having idle buildings like forge or barracks.
Indeed I tried to put in as much settings and options for players to be able to choose what they wanted the mod to do, and how. I'm glad it's useful!

Edited May 2, 2023 by Atrik

[panda]

10 minutes ago, Atrik said:

If you don't use auto-research, you may still have your forges showing up as idle buildings when no techs are queued, on the idle building tab

You are right, this is a good reminder for upgrading army.

 

 

11 minutes ago, Atrik said:

How exactly do you imagine the reminder to look like instead?

In games with ceasefire, you get an alert with "you can attack now". Maybe we can create similar alerts. To create an alert with the mod, you would need  a field "alert name" e.g.,"p2alert", a field "time" e.g., 9:00, a field "message" e.g.,"phase 2, phase 2, phase 2".

Another possibility is also to create an alert based on your resource vs ally resource. I think this can be based on proGUI. Rather than auto-tribute, you would get an alert (like blinking on the resource amount display) to indicate that you have a lot of the resource and an ally is critically low on it or the inverse.

[LetswaveaBook]

My opinion is based on that I hope the game is free and open source. Whereas "free" should be as in freedom. Since (I hope) it is free (as in freedom), there is a high boundary to consider something cheating. Obviously, a mod that reveals the entire map is cheating and crosses that boundary.

0ad should develop as a game and people should be able to develop anything they want without any self-censorship. Whether it will be popular among the masses or not, should not impact freedom of the users.

The (other) users should find a way to enjoy the game for themselves.

It is not a matter of whether such a mod should be allowed to be made, it is about deciding if you want to play with other people that use such a mod. The host of a lobby determines the rules within the lobby. Joining the lobby is in my view equal to accepting that (you don't have to join the lobby). if the host decides that (s)he won't allow these mods, then respect that or leave the lobby.

For me, I currently don't see the problem of others using such a mod .Though I don't refrain from the freedom to change my opinion.

 

In the end, I hope we can provide freedom (and good manners). It is thus not about what the community thinks, but of what your own individual opinion is.

[Atrik]

3 hours ago, panda said:

n games with ceasefire, you get an alert with "you can attack now". Maybe we can create similar alerts. To create an alert with the mod, you would need  a field "alert name" e.g.,"p2alert", a field "time" e.g., 9:00, a field "message" e.g.,"phase 2, phase 2, phase 2".

Yes! Maybe some changes have to be brought into the "Queue Next Phase" feature. I had a few feedback for this one but I'll have to do something simple and intuitive.

3 hours ago, panda said:

Another possibility is also to create an alert based on your resource vs ally resource.

ProGUI has already 3 pages of settings . So for this, I'll recommend you modify it on your end since it's very simple:
In /ProGUI/gui/session/EcoHelp.js:

Line 308, Replace

Engine.PostNetworkCommand({
"type": "tribute",
"player": playerID,
"amounts": {
[resType]: Math.round(((userRes - value - resReserve) * shareratio) / 3 + userGatherers)
}
});

by something like:

warn(state.name + " may need some " + resType + ".");

You should probably actually want to use "Engine.PostMessage" but I've never used it. And haven't figure out (took the time to) understand it. Maybe someone that read this can be of better help.

Done! And all the buttons and settings you can use for how to tribute allies, will now be buttons settings for how often to spam this warning .

Including the filter of players you don't want it to check for, ofc, so it would be neat:

Edited May 2, 2023 by Atrik

[Atrik]

54 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

It is not a matter of whether such a mod should be allowed to be made, it is about deciding if you want to play with other people that use such a mod. The host of a lobby determines the rules within the lobby. Joining the lobby is in my view equal to accepting that (you don't have to join the lobby). if the host decides that (s)he won't allow these mods, then respect that or leave the lobby.

For me, I currently don't see the problem of others using such a mod .Though I don't refrain from the freedom to change my opinion.

I know the scripts in ProGUI, are seen by some as a way to get an edge in game, and they are in some way. But just like @Helicity described, it is also a way to enjoy the game more, focus on fun stuff and "not feeling like a click slave".

 

As @panda demonstrated, you can use the mod, and selectively use the script you want or not (Very good deal of efforts where put in so it's customizable at will).
The overlay (modified from boonGUI) displaying idles units or building could actually be seen as the main feature. And will save you a lot clicks and save you resources.

Clicking to get "all idle barracks" and so on, are enjoyable features.

 

My view on this is that it doesn't feel like cheating, and players I played with never felt I was.

After all, It's just a different UI. And.... It make games more much more enjoyable .

[Atrik]

Tiny update and tutorial that I guess I'll post here, since I got a couple of feedbacks on this one:

To accommodate players that don't use trainer composition (% you can set for the trainer with the mouse-wheel), new settings, and default settings have been changed in last version.

In short, if you just want units to be spammed:
The intuitive settings are abstracted as "Spam Mode". So the best is probably to toggle the two highlighted above, together, and are even now default settings, else some player find the trainer manager confusing, and don't get the result they expect.

New default settings (trainer): Play without using composition. (No Mouse-Wheel)

 

 

For me, the best settings for managing army composition, that I think is the intuitive one, is to uncheck those two same settings.

My (trainer) settings: (old default equivalents)

Just wanted to address this common annoyance for some players, confused because the default compo (%) preset. And to post somewhere this little complementary explanation about it, since for an advanced use of ProGUI, I feel default settings will now be a little limiting.

https://gitlab.com/4trik/proGUI/-/issues/1

Edit: I made a few tweaks to that new "Spam Mode" for it to be intuitive, this just change how you can set units to train on the panel.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Atrik

[ufa]

Without weighing in entirely, one thing missing from the discussion IMO is the inability to see what mods people are using outside of them being the host (and it being listed). I imagine anyone intent on hiding the mods they use and cunning enough to "cheat" (definition pending) could simply spoof the names, but some of the discussion surrounding "free will" to decide whether or not to play with certain players using certain mods ignores the fact that it's impossible to see.

I'm only beginning to learn about the existence of some of these more "far reaching" (unit and economy control) mods, in terms of effect on gameplay and competitiveness. I'd mostly just thought that surely any mods that offer such benefits are vetted (or not multiplayer-compatible), but that doesn't seem to be the case. This first occurred to me when I noticed that when someone with boonGUI mod hosts a game it effects the color red of my game too, which was my first venture into realizing that someone else's mod could effect my game.

A standard for what sort of mods are allowed re: multiplayer (assuming competetive, here) gameplay and what's considered going too far would be useful, as it seems like it's sort of an honor system at the moment? Or is what you all are saying ( @BreakfastBurrito_007 / @real_tabasco_sauce ) is that if a mod did cross the line it would in fact be detectable?

If it wouldn't be detectable, I think it's worth figuring out what's acceptable and not. As mentioned if a mod were to do auto-sniping I don't think it should come down to host's prerogative whether or not to allow, IMO that shouldn't be multiplayer-compatible, or should be somewhere in-between like mods that require everyone to have it installed (which would be like a pseudo detection method).

Edited May 3, 2023 by ufa

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Well I wasn't even considering the detectability. Everything has been fine so far on an honor system, but I imagine competitive players would be very upset to lose to someone automating parts of their game.

For the immediate case, I would say the bottom line is that these mods (macros too) shouldn't be allowed in rated games.

In terms of game design, I would think it best to keep automation to a minimum, with unit auto-queue being the most 'automated' a feature can be.

For example, the "quick start" of ProGUI is too automatic to be a feature.

[Atrik]

3 hours ago, ufa said:

Without weighing in entirely, one thing missing from the discussion IMO is the inability to see what mods people are using outside of them being the host (and it being listed). I imagine anyone intent on hiding the mods they use and cunning enough to "cheat" (definition pending) could simply spoof the names, but some of the discussion surrounding "free will" to decide whether or not to play with certain players using certain mods ignores the fact that it's impossible to see.

You can hide a mod inside another, you can hide a cheat too... Mods are kinda declarative. To paraphrase what@real_tabasco_sauce said. How would you do then? A statistical model to define if 'clicks' are 'natural'? A GUI usage signature of some sort?
Elsewise I was thinking maybe I'll make a "cheap" cheat-detector for players that obviously cheat like clicking on supposedly invisible entities. But even that, I'll probably give up after giving it 1 min of thoughts... In reality nobody cares.

 

To be a little provocative (and in same time it's really fun if you aren't too sensible and didn't saw it yet) you must see @seeh setup. For example this game I was in too and he used AbstractGUI + ProGUI.

 

Not breathtakingly cool? Do any of the players he plays against would be offended by this?

No, why? Also a cheat to reveal hidden stats/map etc. would take < 1-2 hour to make; his combination of mod for sure took > 500 cumulative hours to various peeps to make. And all of this isn't serious, it's a game, we should remember.

As for the category "automation" or "mod optimizing game-play", well, my opinion is that 80%+ can fall within it anyway, including autociv providing shortcuts that would be a pain in the ass to do the same otherwise. Same for any mod displaying any kind of stats...  And the goal is never to cheat, the goal is to optimize game experience.
=> If instead you love to click you can make a mod preventing you from selecting more then 1 unit at a time. Or solve a catpcha every time you phase up. Call it MoreClicksGUI.
(hey wait isn't that Clash of Clans or something actual game experience concept?)

Anyway I hope few people will get a little smile or ideas, if they ever missed @seeh videos showing his setup. lulz

Edited May 3, 2023 by Atrik

[alre]

auto-sniping would be fairly easy btw. I had in mind to create such a mod.

[Atrik]

2 hours ago, alre said:

auto-sniping would be fairly easy btw. I had in mind to create such a mod.

New Stances : Focus weakest unit in range / Focus closest unit?

Well.... this would make sens as a feature in native game. No?
I feel like you're a going to get some pushbacks on that one anyway. Still I'm curious to know how you'll plan to do this as mod, it doesn't seems that obvious to me. In case you have a average (or even little above average) computer anyway...

Edited May 3, 2023 by Atrik

[chrstgtr]

3 hours ago, Atrik said:

New Stances : Focus weakest unit in range / Focus closest unit?

 

This actually makes a ton of sense and something that I would like to see in vanilla. It decreases the incentive to snipe (good because that is just micro intensive) and allows for actual strategy (as opposed to just automation) because ideal armies will have varying stance composition. This is also especially useful when fighting under towers/forts/CCs

[chrstgtr]

18 hours ago, Atrik said:

I know the scripts in ProGUI, are seen by some as a way to get an edge in game, and they are in some way. But just like @Helicity described, it is also a way to enjoy the game more, focus on fun stuff and "not feeling like a click slave".

 

The point other people are making is that they see automation as a cheat and your opinion on whether it is (or isn't) cheating doesn't matter. Both opinions are obviously reasonable. But only the person in favor of automation actually gets a choice on whether it is used--you get to decide whether to "cheat" and your enemy, who believe automation is cheating, can't do anything to stop you. 

 

[rossenburg]

5 hours ago, alre said:

auto-sniping would be fairly easy btw. I had in mind to create such a mod.

well i somehow don't buy this idea as some level of automation should be considered unfair. Whiles proGui's autotraining or researching IMO is fairly not cheating, just like the default auto training purposely to save you couple of secs clicking and rather focusing on building, fighting and managing. Automating fighting is a bit too much. What's the point of an RTS game when you don't get to do the fighting, luring or snipping yourself. The moment these are automated it should be considered cheating. ( Ignore heros, Autosnipping, units avoiding shot projectiles, auto shooting units with the lowest hp etc)

[alre]

sniping is tedious and there already are in the game shortcuts that allow you to do a certain number of actions faster than you would otherwise. I don't see why auto-sniping shouldn't be one of those. maybe nerf sniping instead, or rather make it fully automatic, as OP as it is it makes no sense to leave it to players' micro IMO.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

Automation as powerful as auto-sniping would be a cheat if not everyone had it. If everyone had it, it would break the game. There is a community mod effort re-balance melee and ranged units such that sniping is much less advantageous (while also making melee units more fun to play with). It may still be useful at times, but other micro methods will become much more influential by contrast.

 

[alre]

the game wouldn't be more broken than it already is. in sone ways, it would be fixed.

[borg-]

2 hours ago, alre said:

sniping is tedious and there already are in the game shortcuts that allow you to do a certain number of actions faster than you would otherwise. I don't see why auto-sniping shouldn't be one of those. maybe nerf sniping instead, or rather make it fully automatic, as OP as it is it makes no sense to leave it to players' micro IMO.

I'm not reading this..
In a little while watching two players will be the same as watching two IA.

[seeh]

17 minutes ago, alre said:

the game wouldn't be more broken than it already is. in sone ways, it would be fixed.

Is there reliable data? I've played the mod a few times but (so far) haven't made any measurements as to whether, for example, the CPU consumption is noticeably higher. I guess its maybe not much different (?).

It's going to be hard (if we even want it) to ban it. I also don't think it will be that much easier to win against a PRO player. Losing takes longer

There are a few improvements I would like to see in the standard version. E.g. the auto-train, which continues to work as soon as the resources are there. Or also the batch size automation (sometimes in game for e.g. at the beginning).

If the old batch had been repeated exactly (including different types), then I would have found that very nice too (means without this extra buttons for it at right side).

Beginners will play much better with it and understand the game (booming) faster. For pro players maybe sometimes. I can now develop almost as quickly without this mod, but I find it a very, very great relieving. And free time to think what I really want to do. Yes at the moment i have sometimes to much production of a special type or so.

[hyperion]

2 hours ago, rossenburg said:

Automating fighting is a bit too much.

We still lack an AI that can play competitively and this likely won't change

[alre]

3 hours ago, borg- said:

In a little while watching two players will be the same as watching two IA.

still more relatable than this.

besides, these automations still need some level of management. you avoid doing some clicks, and you smooth the processes, but you still need to make macro decisions, and put the mind into it, supervise the automations.