New Civ for Alpha 28+?

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, AIEND said:

We cannot assume the possible development of a civilization after encountering other civilizations. Our games cannot assume history, but only reflect the history that has actually been experienced. If you assume that the Native Americans in BC obtained horses and domesticated them to produce cavalry, then 0AD becomes an alternate history game, so how can we represent the real and unique native American civilization?

would still be optional. and it's just a consideration yet it doesn't change the gameplay much.

[AIEND]

4 分钟前，wowgetoffyourcellphone 说：

是的，游牧民族应该还有农田。 

For fragile nomadic production methods, planting is no different than a necessary means to increase the ability to resist risks. Therefore, some developed nomadic countries, such as the Khazar Khanate, the Bulgar Khanate, the Uyghur Khanate, and the Mongol Khanate ( 16th century) all had large-scale agriculture.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, AIEND said:

For fragile nomadic production methods, planting is no different than a necessary means to increase the ability to resist risks. Therefore, some developed nomadic countries, such as the Khazar Khanate, the Bulgar Khanate, the Uyghur Khanate, and the Mongol Khanate ( 16th century) all had large-scale agriculture.

But what about early iron age nomads?

[AIEND]

2 分钟前，Lion.Kanzen 说：

仍然是可选的。 这只是一个考虑因素，但不会对游戏玩法产生太大影响。

The gameplay needs to take into account both historical reality and the balance between factions. Perhaps it is an interesting scene to let the native American civilizations fight against the civilizations of Eurasia and Africa in the game, but considering the reality, the balance is difficult to grasp. So I hope you can focus this part of your energy on creating a pre-colonial mod with only American civilization.

3 分钟前，Lion.Kanzen 说：

但是铁器时代早期的游牧民族呢？

The same is true, such as Xiongnu I said.

[Lion.Kanzen]

""Other (Etruscans, Samnites, Illyrians, Galatians, Armenians, Garamantes, Nabataeans, Parthians, Greco-Bactrians, or Pontians)""

--- I'm cellphone user-----

We need more Italic tribes and some Italic Greeks (Magna Greece).

Pergamon city state ( tiny but important).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Himyarite_Kingdom

[Lion.Kanzen]

11 minutes ago, AIEND said:

civilizations of Eurasia and Africa

I bet if we include any faction from sub Sahara Africa you guys will complain.

[Lion.Kanzen]

13 minutes ago, AIEND said:

The same is true, such as Xiongnu I said.

The question then would be: would agriculture be in a phase after the first or second?

The first phase emulates a village, a minimal settlement.

The second to a larger population size...and so on.

[Lion.Kanzen]

16 minutes ago, AIEND said:

pre-colonial mod with only American civilization

Pre colonial mod goes beyond the time of 0 A.D, plus there are people who want to see Romans fighting with Chinese and Mayans.

Or Chinese fighting the Greeks in the Amazon jungle or in Australia.

[AIEND]

18 分钟前，Lion.Kanzen 说：

我敢打赌，如果我们包括来自撒哈拉以南非洲的任何派系，你们会抱怨的。

If those civilizations have at least entered the Bronze Age, then I have nothing to complain about. Aren't we already planning to join Yamatai, which doesn't even have cavalry and doesn't have many iron weapons?

[AIEND]

在 2023/02/12 上午 5:31，Lion.Kanzen 说道：

前殖民模式超越了公元 0 年代，而且还有人希望看到罗马人与中国人和玛雅人作战。

或者中国人在亚马逊丛林或澳大利亚与希腊人作战。

There is no doubt about it, I am also looking forward to it. But we still have to consider balance. If possible, it is best to make a pre-colonial American civilization mod (such as one without water resources) that can be used in game mechanics with the 0AD main body, so that we don’t have to worry about things that are not in the main game The balance between American civilizations and Eurasian and African civilizations. At the same time, it also means that we are not limited to only one or two American civilizations.

Edited February 17, 2023 by AIEND

[AIEND]

29 分钟前，Lion.Kanzen 说：

那么问题是：农业会处于第一阶段或第二阶段之后的阶段吗？

第一阶段模拟一个村庄，一个最小的定居点。

第二个是更大的人口规模……等等。

I think agriculture can only appear in P2, because the planting industry in nomadic countries is often not the individual behavior of herdsmen, but the requirements of tribal chiefs, Shanyu, and Khan, and the start of agricultural construction in nomadic countries generally requires nomadic cavalry Farmers are captured from villages in other countries, and these people who have mastered agricultural skills are allowed to reclaim the land, instead of training herdsmen who know nothing about farming from scratch.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

1 hour ago, AIEND said:

This is what AoE2&AoE3 does. This type of infantry is called "shock infantry", but to be honest, in 0AD, a game that is more realistic and does not favor hard restraint, we cannot make infantry really replace cavalry. If it is true that humans can outrun horses with two legs, why did the native tribes of North America domesticate horses and become the best riders?

There is no need to outrun horses, but just to outrun other infantry.

[AIEND]

4 分钟前，BreakfastBurrito_007 说：

不需要跑得过马，只要跑得过其他步兵即可。

That's not enough for them to replace the cavalry's mission. The important thing is that they don't have bronze weapons, and it's difficult to gain an advantage even if they get close to the enemy.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

20 minutes ago, AIEND said:

That's not enough for them to replace the cavalry's mission

Do they need to? 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 hour ago, AIEND said:

We cannot assume the possible development of a civilization after encountering other civilizations. Our games cannot assume history, but only reflect the history that has actually been experienced. If you assume that the Native Americans in BC obtained horses and domesticated them to produce cavalry, then 0AD becomes an alternate history game, so how can we represent the real and unique native American civilization?

Nobody ever said anything about assuming history. Even if we did, I don't personally see anything wrong with that. This is a videogame, not a historical simulation, which would be very boring and unbalanced.

Now here is the situation: In gameplay, a mesoamerican civ is in close proximity to civs with horses. It would be a nice feature that the civ can utilize the horses after capture. What is so unrealistic about this? It is a convenient and interesting gameplay mechanic.

Now, if this is deemed inaccurate, there are still means to compensate for the lack of cavalry, but I still see no issue with training cav from captured stables, which would be a rarity in most games.

2 hours ago, AIEND said:

copper is very soft, not suitable for weapons, nor can it replace stone tools, so American civilization has been in the period of copper and stone for a long time, Tahuantinsuyu There is a technology for processing bronze, but that is very late.

Yes, but it is still metal, and it could be used for trade/currency, which can explain metal costs for things that are not directly made of metal. Alternatively, other precious items like gemstones could be used as more abstract stand-ins for metal costs.

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

Are you sure that historical is the correct word? Archaeological yes. Historical no. 

The mayans wrote with glyphs, with the earliest known example apparently from 300 bc. I am not familiar with mayan oral history but this also constitutes history, at least for many native American societies.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

38 minutes ago, AIEND said:

That's not enough for them to replace the cavalry's mission. The important thing is that they don't have bronze weapons, and it's difficult to gain an advantage even if they get close to the enemy.

That doesn't matter, as they can still be balanced.

[Genava55]

56 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

The mayans wrote with glyphs, with the earliest known example apparently from 300 bc. I am not familiar with mayan oral history but this also constitutes history, at least for many native American societies.

The few inscriptions known from this period don't tell much. It doesn't give as much information as the long texts of the Egyptians or of the later Maya. You cannot have a proper account with short inscriptions of less than 10 glyphes.

So I maintain my point: this is not history in a strict sense.

If it was the case, we should be able to get three real figures for the heroes. But it is not.

Edited February 12, 2023 by Genava55

[Lopess]

For me this discussion is more focused on how far this game is an rts game or a historical simulator.

But that doesn't matter much because in the end what matters is having good art and good gameplay, I believe that if players can have fun and enjoy in a pleasant way different facts from the history of the most diverse civilizations that is what matters. Today I see this mainly in mods, especially in Delenda Est, interesting mechanics, without dubious restrictions on which civilizations deserve to be represented and the possibility that even groups that are on the margins of great civilizations appear as trainable mercenaries depending on the map.

And if you only want to play between civs who are contemporaries and neighbors, nothing stops you.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

13 minutes ago, Lopess said:

And if you only want to play between civs who are contemporaries and neighbors, nothing stops you.

Delenda Est also allows players to choose random civs based on region. Best of both worlds.

[CovenantKillerJ]

On 11/02/2023 at 2:32 AM, AIEND said:

The progress of American civilization, such as city construction, may be reflected in some construction and operation games, but it is not suitable for RTS such as 0AD, because in the final analysis, this game is about fighting, and the problem of American civilization at this time is There are no domesticated horses, no metal weapons, no wheels, so there are no cavalry, chariots, and battering rams, which makes it difficult for them to compete with the existing civilizations of the game. In addition, AoE3 appears in the 15th century and later Native Americans , and if we try to join American civilization now, its level of civilization is still far from the most mature state in 1,500 years.
I am more optimistic about the pre-colonial American mods that only have American civilization, because the combat modes of all factions are similar, without iron, cavalry and chariots.

You have a point that many of their advancements can be considered irrelevant to combat. However, I still believe that these civilizations can still have a place in the game. They can have more variety of weapons for infantry compared to most civilizations as others have mentioned, such as pikemen and possibly even bolas acting as a hard counter to cavalry. I forgot to mention earlier that there is the fact that obsidian can equate to sharpness of metal, aside from its brittleness which could be a nice upgrade/sidegrade dynamic. There is also the possibility that this can bring new strategies and gameplay mechanics, under a guerilla theme. And if that doesn't work, they could work as a spammable faction where numbers have to make up for lack of metal vs. those with it with lots of max population upgrades.

Edited February 12, 2023 by CovenantKillerJ

[Akira Kurosawa]

I have an idea - to give players the opportunity to create their own "refugee nation". Recalculate the balance in points, for example, 100.000 and how in the RPG genre it will be possible to fill the balance scale by selecting units.

[AIEND]

6 小时前，CovenantKillerJ 说：

您的观点是，他们的许多进步可以被认为与战斗无关。 不过，我还是相信，这些文明还是可以在游戏中占有一席之地的。 与其他人提到的大多数文明相比，他们可以拥有更多种类的步兵武器，例如长枪兵，甚至可能是用来对抗骑兵的流星锤。 我之前忘了提到黑曜石可以等同于金属的锋利度，除了它的脆性，这可能是一个很好的升级/sidegrade 动态。 在游击队主题下，这也有可能带来新的策略和游戏机制。 如果这不起作用，他们可以作为一个垃圾邮件派系工作，在这个派系中，数字必须弥补金属的缺乏，而那些拥有大量最大人口升级的人。

I think that since Yamatai can be accepted, the backwardness of American civilization in military technology is not so prominent. Well, we might as well give it a try. I don’t know any other outstanding representatives of American civilization in this time period two thousand years ago besides the Maya, but if we decide to do it, we might as well take the representative American powers of this period All show up.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

I just checked out the Scythians and Xiongnu. They are very cool and I like the nomadic implementation. Building anywhere is good, and the wagon<-> house/storehouse feature is great. @wowgetoffyourcellphone do you plan on adjusting their structures so that they appear a little more distinct?

Im not sure how well the cavalry able to build feature would work out. On one hand, I would rather cavalry conform to the rest of the civs as a consistency measure, but on the other hand, I think their ability to build could allow for very fun aggressive gameplay. 

Perhaps a middle ground would be to just allow the women cavalry units to build.

This is quite a lot of differentiation between the nomadic civs and the current ones. I am thinking this level of differentiation would welcome @borg-'s sparta patch, which I have reworked into a git branch for the community mod.

Edited February 12, 2023 by real_tabasco_sauce

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

26 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

@wowgetoffyourcellphone do you plan on adjusting their structures so that they appear a little more distinct?

Best I can do personally is add more props. Will need @Stan` or @LordGood for more drastic changes. D you have anything specific to suggest changing?

 

27 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Im not sure how well the cavalry able to build feature would work out. On one hand, I would rather cavalry conform to the rest of the civs as a consistency measure, but on the other hand, I think their ability to build could allow for very fun aggressive gameplay. 

As with the Han, we can probably start off with all the distinctive features intact, then with player feedback iterate them to remove everything unique and fun for Alpha release.  

 

28 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

This is quite a lot of differentiation between the nomadic civs and the current ones. I am thinking this level of differentiation would welcome @borg-'s sparta patch, which I have reworked into a git branch for the community mod.

You should check out DE's Spartans. Perhaps could serve some inspiration. Choose Leonidas as your hero, you can see how unlocking Gorgo works (she boosts civic centers and female citizens). 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

34 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Im not sure how well the cavalry able to build feature would work out. On one hand, I would rather cavalry conform to the rest of the civs as a consistency measure, but on the other hand, I think their ability to build could allow for very fun aggressive gameplay. 

 

I was also wondering what you thought of the auto-build features. One option is to lean further into that instead.