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Yes, this is another yet another post about the Spartans. No, I’m not going to complain about broken Spartiates. A few things caught my attention when I started playing some weeks ago, and then I just went down a rabbit hole (things I usually do to myself). The purpose of me joining this forum was to write about this, but then other things got in the way. Also, recently “More Unique Civs: What can we do?“ was asked, I hope some of the following points give some ideas. I think it’s great to name things like “Limēn (Dock)”, but I’ll leave those details to Ancient Greek speakers. Then: PART I: Simple things that should be: -Tyrtean Paeans should be Tyrtaean Paeans: that’s a typo, and maybe the icon should be different because people will think it’s about some sandal tech. Of course it would be nice somewhere to add a small explanation of things. -Carrier Pigeons should be Phryctoria: Pigeons were used already by the 8th century BC (there’s a big issue regarding anachronical technologies in general). Systematic fire signaling would have been developed at the time of the game. -The Loom should be Loom Industry: the Loom has existed for thousands of years, while from the Classical period onwards there’s production on a scale beyond personal needs. -The Sacrificial Ritual icon should be changed: it’s the same as Kripteia, and shouldn’t seem to represent human sacrifice. -Spartiates should be Hoplites Spartiates: there could be Spartiates that were too old to be hoplites anymore. -Embolons should be Three-Finned Embolon: around the time of the start of the game, the triremes and two-pronged bronze rams appear, while the three-finned version appears around 400 BC, a bit more appropriate for such a late tech. -Gerusia should be Skias: Gerusia was not a building, but a council. They might have met in a Bouleuterion, but anyway, the building has Brasidas, an ephor, and Kripteia, overseen by the ephors, and the ephors formed a council independent from the Gerusia. I think Skias is a better fit since Pausanias says “they have built what is called Scias (Canopy), where even at the present day they hold their meetings of the Assembly”, which was made up of all Spartiates to elect the gerontes and ephors, and ratify their proposals (of course, many things are still discussed by scholars, Sparta is not as well documented as Athens). Figure 6 in https://books.openedition.org/pcjb/7647 shows how it would have looked like (search “Skias et Oikodoméma”). -Hellenistic Architecture civ. bonus should be Doric Order: it says “the Greeks used stone construction from early Mycenaean times”. This is confusion of the highest order. Those stones (Cyclopean masonry) have nothing to do with Hellenistic architecture, which corresponds to the Hellenistic period, starting with Alexander’s death. Maybe “Hellenic” was meant, referring to the preceding period, but their architecture had little to do with reusing those stones, just mainly for walls. And in any case, Sparta didn’t really reuse them, Athens and others did. To fix this: they had 3 orders of architecture, Doric (appearing before the game starts), Ionic (appearing a bit later) and Corinthian (appearing in the Classical period). Then, Athenians could have a Cyclopean Masonry civ. bonus for cheaper stone walls or something, and with Sparta they should start with a Doric Order civ. bonus (basically the only one Spartans used) for sturdy buildings (they were building temples with wood before that). And that’s it for the Spartans. Others could also have Ionic Order and Corinthian Order techs, but that’s another matter. -The Spartan Olympic Hoplite should be Hippeus (Royal Guard): this has been proposed already, but I have something to add. Hippeis (I’d add “Royal Guard” as translation), a designation of hundreds, are being ignored in favor of what would have been a handful. Besides, I think this is based on imprecise translations, since I’ve found variations stating either Olympic, great or public games (https://lexundria.com/plut_lyc/22/prr), and the original (https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0007.tlg004.perseus-grc2:22.4) says “a crowned victor of a contest”, only later specifying the Olympics for a particular warrior. -The Sanctuary of Artemis Orthia should be Athena Chalkioikos: I’m being nitpicky with this one since both were important, but it was Athena, not Artemis, the polyadic (protector) deity of Sparta, and it would be only in the 2nd century AD that her worship would be overshadowed by that of Artemis Orthia (check Guy Dickins’ The Hieron of Athena Chalkioikos). Artemis’ cult could give Spartiates stats enhancement bonus (it was related to the Agoge, and notorious for the diamastigosis, a ritual flagellation event). Athena’s cult was more civil in nature, and could give a metal bonus (apparently related to metal workers, chalkioikos means bronze house, I think the building had bronze outside). Simple things that could be: -Cartography could be Geography: cartography has existed for thousands of years, it was geographical knowledge that made maps more precise, and Erathostenes, at the time of the game, was the first to use that word. -Naupegoi (Shipwrights) could be Neōsoikoi (Shipshed): shipwrights are not new to the time of the game. Spartan shipsheds were probably built at this time, and this would work well for Athens and others also. -The Persian Stoa could be the Wonder: I’ve read there’s some unused model. Pausanias says “The most striking feature in the Agora is the portico which they call the Persian Stoa, because it was made from spoils taken in the Persian Wars”. Figure 18 in https://books.openedition.org/pcjb/7647 shows a diagram of it. -Laws of Lycurgus could be Great Rhetra: Great Rhetra is the name of their constitution, the info tip could say it’s the Laws of Lycurgus, as he is already mentioned in other places, like the Catafalque Bonuses icon. It still refers to the thankfully renamed Champion Hoplites and Olympic Champions, thus all this has to be rephrased now. -Unlock Neodamodeis could be Helot Emancipation: emancipation is how Xenophon constantly describes it. Brasidians was also proposed I think, but that refers only to the Helots that served under Brasidas. -Lycurgan Military Reforms could appear only once: in Catafalque Bonuses it says 2 times Lycurgan Military Reforms, I’d write it just once, since both are infantry cost bonuses, and could be grouped under the same name. It still refers to Citizen Infantry Spearman and Champion Infantry Spearman. -Lycurgan Military Reforms could be Melas Zomos: just a detail in line with names "teaching" something interesting, and Lycurgus already appears, as mentioned. The bonus lowers hoplite costs, and melas zomos, or black soup, was the staple of Spartan cuisine, simple and frugal, that other Greeks apparently mocked. -Ritualistic Exercise (in place of Spartan Women) civ. bonus could be Bibasis: Bibasis was a difficult Spartan dance done by both men and women, and made Spartan women capable of notorious physical feats for which they were very proud of. I meant this for the Spartan Women, but it would work for Citizen-Soldiers also, as referred to now. Changes that have been already proposed: -Remove the Theater: something like that was built later in Roman times. Many state that the Skias was the oldest known odeion in ancient Greece (I guess the wooden theater some were mentioning), but this could be a misconception from some Medieval dictionary. A generic Odeion building could be also added, if they’ll eventually do something (cultural buildings and techs could influence expansion and capture times). -Add Agiads and Eurypontids civ. bonus: although my naming, the ability to train two Heroes at once has been discussed a lot. One of them could be garrisoned for Hero bonuses to work to ensure one king stays in Sparta (it doesn’t matter if non-king Heroes are trained, one can imagine that one has to stay for other reasons). I’m not sure if there’s a problem with regicide mode, losing one of them should be losing, making training an extra one in regicide mode a more dangerous choice. One could get nitpicky about not having 2 kings of the same dynasty at the same time, but that’s too much, why not complain about Han vs Britons then, or training Heroes in the wrong chronological order. -Add Oliganthropia civ. bonus: reduce maximum population (-10% has been proposed, maybe applied only to Spartiates). -Revise building availability: I’ve seen discussions regarding the Stables, the Market, the Stone Tower, and the Arsenal, and I also think they should appear later, if even, and with less techs and units (I haven’t found anything regarding Spartans using the oxybeles). Weak trade and cavalry would be balanced in what follows. Other changes that could be considered: -Make the Skias train Ephors: ephors held the real power, they applied the law (applying fines) and oversaw training (checking fitness). Similarly to the Han Ministers, Ephor units could be trained, up to 5, to generate metal and affect stats of units produced from the building they would be garrisoned in. Ephors could balance weak or no trade considering payment in resources (I couldn’t find direct references on sources, but Spartans shunned gold and silver and paid in food and iron, maybe in other resources). Brasidas would be a Hero Ephor, increasing both counts, penalty balanced with the Agiads and Eurypontids civ. bonus. The same could be for Chilon of Sparta, one of the Seven Sages of Greece, although he lived a bit too early for the game. -Add Skias techs, like Bribe Gerontes and Cleomenes III Reforms: a Bribe Gerontes tech, returning a direct reference to the Gerusia, could make Heroes a bit more powerful (Agesilaus II, a proposed hero, and other kings did it). A late Cleomenes III Reforms tech (introducing him in a way, as proposed) could kill one’s Ephors (a condition could be to have at least 4 of them) in exchange for some mostly military bonus. Bribe Gerontes sounds better as a building ability with a cooldown, if this sort of thing could be even considered. -Make Skiritae faster and with larger FOV: they were used as hoplites, scouts, sentries, and later on, skirmishers. Some think they just used pelts as armor. Skiritae would then balance a weak cavalry, and everything falls naturally to the Barracks, quite Spartan, a concept someone also proposed. -Change how units level up: it was confusing for me that units got automatically upgraded to yet another type of infantry, messing up with double-clicking, and having them not really go through all ranks (if I understood correctly how it works, maybe not). I’d only upgrade them when a 4th rank is reached. Also maybe an Hippagretai Chosen tech should be researched first, if upgrading to Hippeis, explaining that this will happen (the 3 Hippagretai chose the 300 Hippeis). This is long enough for now. I have 8 points already done for Part II, but I’ll need some time to flesh out other things.

@Thalatta, some players, and I'm part of them, think some aspect of the game-play like formations should have a greater role in this game. And I'm fairly dedicated to make it happen, as much as the development process allows it. My thoughts are really to try getting the game a bit away from this cheap filling of clicky gameplay toward funnier and mentally rewarding mechanics. But it is the hard path from what I've experienced. Much more work for sure. As you can see, there is also a lot of controversy when it comes to vision on the gameplay, which add up to make the triple combo : more work, slow development, resistance to change. But there are a lot of awesome people in the staff, and in this community so there is no reason to give up on making the game better, whatever the path might be. Now about ModernGUI, the mod itself is bundling the work of plenty of awesome modders, and I did a lot of work too to get it where it is, I don't think it's no longer a small project as the incremental enhancement added to the UI are starting to make it something reasonably cool imho. There are so many things you can explore through the various overlays, hundreds of added stylized tooltips, and added pages. Generally the mod is named only for the "autotrain" who, even if I do like a lot for playing, is a bit clumsy in the way it is currently. I'm currently undertaking a total rethinking of it, that will resemble more to a feature that fit more naturally into the game.

@guerringuerrin Thanks for the ModernGUI explanation, I didn’t know all those details. I think its capabilities are very interesting, but maybe for a game that has a lot of complexity in other parts, and as we all know, it’s still work in progress, maybe much of that will be implemented eventually if the actual clicking has be done somewhere else (unit’s formations, abilities, more city-building, who knows). I agree that in MP everyone should play under similar conditions (unless something else is agreed), I use the vanilla auto-queue in SP because all that clicking seems mechanical to me, not because it gives me an advantage, even when at the end I think it does, and although I don’t find the AI challenging anymore, I’d rather fight a much harder AI than deactivate auto-queue. So, it’s not that I want things to be easier, I just don’t want them to be boring, but I guess what is fun or not depends on each one. What really surprises me (and this from ignorance) is why the game in MP mode has not been made to detect which mods are being used by the players (maybe for some reason this is an impossibility?). It’s not that I want to minimise the MP aspect of a game, it's that I feel the opposite happens too often, and I stated what problems I see with that. In fact, as I hinted, I don’t even see it as a MP vs SP issue, but more as a mechanicality vs creativity issue, which is different since both could occur in MP and SP, although in competitive MP there’s a clear tendency for mechanicality, which I find unfortunate since for example a MP battle in Total War can be fun, tactical, and not just a clicking race, but it is what it is.

Sure, I understand you. I also don’t think that arguing “learn to play” contributes much. For me, the key point of the discussion is how to reach a consensus—how to bring both “playstyles” closer together without pushing everything to extremes. And I’d like to elaborate a bit on this so you understand what I mean. There’s a big difference between allowing the queue to resume once resources are available and a mod that assigns batches of units sized exactly to fit each building automatically and at instant speed. Moreover, the mod in question (ModernGUI) doesn’t simply leave a preassigned production queue; as a player, you can choose the composition of your army—for example: 40% javelineers, 40% pikemen, and 20% cavalry—and the mod will produce units in batches, assigning them to the queue just 1–2 seconds before the currently produced unit finishes. This also optimizes resource usage, since you keep them available until that exact moment. Then, if you run out of resources because you used them elsewhere, as soon as you have resources again, the mod automatically resumes production. Of course, there are caveats—you can’t say it’s perfect. Additionally, the mod includes some very interesting GUI improvements that, in my opinion, would be very positive to incorporate into vanilla. In other words, for me this isn’t a black-and-white issue. It’s true that the vanilla 0 A.D. system has some fairly clear functional bugs, and there is ongoing work to improve them. If you haven’t tried the mod already, I invite you to try it yourself so you can compare it with what I’m saying. Sure—against the AI, use whatever mod you like. Personally, I find it frustrating to lose a match to someone and then realize they were using this mod. There’s also been a lot of discussion about transparency—whether people should disclose when they’re using it. And in my experience, until you watch a replay and notice it yourself, players usually don’t tell you. It’s true that many people aren’t deliberately hiding it. In my experience, most players who use the mod don’t feel like they’re cheating; they just enjoy the game more that way. Some at least acknowledge that it helps them play better; others argue they would play just as well and that they simply find it boring otherwise—something I personally find very hard to believe, since the advantages of this training system seem quite obvious to me. That said, it’s natural that someone who doesn’t use that mod and plays against someone who does might feel it’s unfair. It’s humanly impossible for a player not using the mod to perform all the tasks that someone using it can, especially in battle scenarios where, while one player has to manage unit production, the other can keep clicking in combat while the barracks are practically producing on their own—as long as you have houses and resources, it will keep going. In other words, one player can focus on microing units in battle, while the other also has to deal with barracks micromanagement. And you might say these are just different schools of play, different preferences. Fair enough—but in multiplayer, when you’re facing another human who has these advantages, it’s natural that someone might feel frustrated or that it isn’t fair. This thread mixes many different issues. That’s why I asked whether you really knew what kind of automation was being discussed, and to what extent that automation goes. It’s not a minor debate. And even if the multiplayer community is a minority, let me say that it’s a very active one, and many people who actively contribute to the game’s development are part of it. Moreover, I think the multiplayer aspect should not be minimized at all—considering that this is an RTS, it’s only natural that it carries a certain weight. Sorry for the length of my response. I’m terrible at summarizing my ideas. At the same time, it felt more practical to just dump this whole rant at once rather than go little by little, haha.

They can be though, since there is that flood map where the water rises, so maybe it’s possible to change the sky colors in the future? You are right. I was looking through extinct volcano, and saw this: const cmpWaterManager = Engine.QueryInterface(SYSTEM_ENTITY, IID_WaterManager); const newLevel = cmpWaterManager.GetWaterLevel() + waterLevelIncreaseHeight; cmpWaterManager.SetWaterLevel(newLevel); this.DebugLog("Raising water level to " + Math.round(newLevel) + " took " + (cmpTimer.GetTime() - time)); maybe we can change it to light manager or something

Screencast from 2026-04-05 01-44-43.webm Yey!

I still think it would be just great if the building preview of a pyramid showed its aura. @wowgetoffyourcellphone If I remember correctly you agreed with this? https://gitea.wildfiregames.com/0ad/0ad/issues/8868

Spartans would live and train at barracks from the ages of 7 (others say 14, maybe permanently from then on) to around 20. Then they would be admitted to the syssitia, to have mandatory meals in small mess halls. They are different things (always check the sources, for example Kulesza in Sparta: History, State and Society says that "Clauss (1983, 79), as well as Jones (1964, 153) believe that Agis planned to change the form of the syssitia, transforming them from intimate dinner clubs into large mess halls"). Regarding the Perioikoi, since they were mostly free in their communities, and Xenophon says "followed with him also many of the Perioeci as volunteers, men of the better class, and aliens who belonged to the so-called foster-children of Sparta, and sons of the Spartiatae by Helot women, exceedingly fine-looking men, not without experience of the good gifts of the state", they had time to train, I guess in their own barracks (still have to find a source on that). One can think the base game just conglomerates barracks (or wherever people trained) from all Sparta (or Lacedaemon, which is more encompassing). Outskirt camps are a bit weird, they had their own towns, and were considered part of the state, saying they were not citizens is a misleading simplification. Kulesza puts it nicely: "Formally speaking, the perioikoi constituted a part of the Spartan state (though the question remains whether they were still inhabitants of separate city-states; see Eremin 2002; Mertens 2002), which is reflected in its official name, the Lacedaemonians, which included both the fully enfranchised citizens (Spartiates) and the perioikoi. In my estimation, the perioikoi were both citizens of the Spartan polis and citizens of their own city-states, which justifies using the term “double citizenship” (Hall 2000). On the other hand, the perioikoi had no political rights, and thus were fully dependent on Sparta in the most fundamental issues, which is why they are sometimes described as “second-rate citizens” (Lotze 2000, 171–183, see Cartledge 2000, col. 582–583; Ducat 2018, 612)".

Thank you! yes i need to figure out those warnings, as they are single player only... although i think there is one with perisa mp and sp... in your defense, Han is pretty OP although all civs are. And thanks to @Seleucids the ai is now a bit smarter and strronger in general, so yeah they can be tough!

I was not expecting replies after 5 years lol. I tried DE at Alpha 23, and I liked it, I'll give it a try again. Looks interesting, another one for the list. Yeah, by the time I originally posted my question, 0 A.D. had many mods (Alpha 23), and I was just starting playing it. I really liked the tower defense mod, but it got no updates, which is sad (for me). I already tried to run the game without the public, but it was not possible, sadly. lol Thank you all!

Hey, I played it, and found it very interesting, nice work! It has a lot of potential. No more fire cav for iberians? I got something like that, but I'm only using the base game and Classical Warfare (Here as seleucids). That's true, and this mod just made them pretty hard to play with, which I liked pretty much. I also recorded it, you can watch it here. I almost got destroyed by Han, but my name says it all xD. Nice work here, anyways. Keep up the work!

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D1718 (Phabricator is the software we used before Gitea)

@guerringuerrin I had no idea storehouses also have the bell! thanks for the vid lol

Hi guys! Would anybody want to help with the art design for the Classic Warfare AEA mod? Here is the forum https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/140701-classical-warfare-aea/

Create a gitea account and push your changes to the repository. Little cumbersome to set up, but it would be sad to see this change not lasting.

@guerringuerrin Ah my bad, thought those threads were public, it is now

(If you haven't already) the best thing you can do is try it and draw your own conclusions.

I don't think anyone wants something like that. There has to be a separation on what is mechanical and what is (too) automatic. Basically, I'd say that if there's only one simple way to do something, then that's mechanical, and if you need a tool that solves more complex issues and/or makes choices, that's automatic. That's why I like auto-queue in vanilla, there's only one simple way to "keep producing these units from this building". That's why I don't like auto-scout, there are many ways to do it, and auto-target is much worse, the point of a FPS should be to aim first. Now, maybe many things in ModernGUI are hard to classify, and then it's a matter of consensus on what would be mechanically boring for most people, and with most people it has to be taken into account that most people here are not necessarily representative of most people overall.

Mmm estoy seguro que la primera son los grandes lagos, y la de abajo es los Andes.

I care about how neat it looks like for someone just starting the game, considering how those panels look like in other games. So a mod wouldn't do

I don't see how this is such a "huge" concern unless we try it.

The issue with building a system revolving on different archer types, is that for balancing, it would be necessary to give it to most civs. No matter what historical justifications one might find. Personally, I feel like the current system, with archers, slingers, and javelineers, isn't being used to its full potential.

public Litterally, a must-have.

To be honest before trying to make Civs unique the focus should be on making units more "unique". If an army of Spearmen, Archers and Cavalry Swordsmen, an army of Pikemen, Slingers and Cavalry Javeleers and an army of Swordsmen, Javeleers and Cavalry Archers would be gameplay-wise noticeable different from each other making Civs feel more unique would be a lot easier. Temple also needs a rework. Remove all techs aside from maybe Living Conditions, and create a bunch more interesting ones, like bigger healing radius for Temples, increased RoF around Temples, several techs giving giving Healers different kind of auras and so on. Then each Civ gets only a few of them. Healers themselves could also be made more unique. Like a Surgeons heals idle units / units in combat with 5 / 1 effectiveness, Doctors 4 / 2, Priests and Druids 3 / 3.

Hello, the mod is now available on mod.io and through the mod downloader. In the future refrain from using 0ad>=0.28.0 as it causes issues (You cannot guarantee what will happen in the future)

I'm actually one of the first who understood what you're trying to introduce to the game. That's why I've reacted the way I did. I'm sure the developers understood, as well. Your incoherent, strawman analogies and personal insults have prolonged the discussion and pushed it on to a different path. It's good that you're acknowledging this. There's nothing more to add, honestly.

Buenos días tardes o noches: Aquí le dejo una previa sobre el Boceto de la facción Asmonea @p3p : Desculpen las molestias*

Buenos días o tardes; -Así se ven en el juego las facciones europeas; (Sólo faltan los íberos y Siracusa ya que recibieron una actualización ,en unos días subiré las fotos) ¿Qué otras facciones les gustarían que fueran incluidas en la segunda versión del mod? Europa (12) Bósforo Dacios Delmatae/Dálmatas Épiro íberos (faltan) ilirios (proprie dicti) Lusitanos Sármatas (nómadas) Siracusa (faltan) Suevos Tracios Urálicos (nómadas) Bósforo Dacios Delmatae/Dálmatas Épiro íberos (faltan) ilirios (proprie dicti) Lusitanos Sármatas (nómadas) Siracusa (faltan) Suevos Tracios Urálicos (nómadas) Disculpen las molestias*

Sure it ends before the game finish

Bro, no need to be a loner, if u want a girlfriend you just tell a woman u are 2k rate in 0ad

You mean 38C-36D

Macedonian girls are voluptuous