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Genava55

===[TASK]=== Current issues with Celtic units and guideline for the next

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3 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Thus the second version for the Gallic roster, with a basic swordsman infantry have the preference?

I prefer V1. But need a cavalry in the Village phase, Sword cavalry could be.

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On 1/23/2019 at 2:49 AM, borg- said:

I think all civilizations should have these 4 units as a base, infantry melee spearman/sword, infantry ranged archer/javelins (I do not know how much of this is historically correct). It would be great for us to balance. 

For me it is absolutely not a problem. Spearman, swordsman, cavalry, skirmisher, slinger... these are very common in any "barbarian" culture. But if they have all the same roster and that currently the same stats for each type, it could become boring. I don't know if you are talking about the vanilla game or about a mod.

Is it more balanced like this? Different starting units but with the town phase they are more similar with their new units.

Gallic roster:

  • Village
    • Swordman - Cingetos (generic term for warrior fighting in the front line).
    • Javelin skirmisher - Bagauda (bellicose/fighter), Talanos (support person). or Adretos (who moves fast, attacker).
    • Sword cavalry - Eporedos (cavalryman).
  • Town
    • Champion naked warrior (spearman) - Bariogaisatos (furious spearman). Fast and scary for fresh recruit (bonus against basic version of units ?) 
    • Spearman - Ambactos (who-is-around, attested word from Caesar for Gallic retinue and clients). 
    • Slinger - Telmiuicos (slinger), Uassos (meaning servant/vassal) or Talanos (supportive person).
  • City
    • Champion sword horseman - Comaterecos (patrician) or Uerouicos (victorious warrior, great fighter)
    • Archer - Selgos (hunter) - Archers. Upgrade for the slinger?
    • Champion Lance cavalry - Epouanos (horse-killer). Anti-cavalry special unit.

Brythonic roster:

  • Village
    • Spearman  - Catucos (combatant), Batacos (combatant) or Batoros (who-hit-hard, fighter).
    • Javelin skirmisher - Bagauda (bellicose/fighter), Talanos (support person). or Adretos (who moves fast, attacker).
    • Light cavalry with javelins - Gaisaredos (Javelin on horse, mounted), Gaisatoredos (Javelinist on horse), Adretos (who moves fast, attacker) or Bagauda (attested for horsemen as well during the Gallo-Roman rebellion).
  • Town
    • Slinger - Telmiuicos (slinger), Uassos (meaning servant, attested word) or Talanos (support person).
    • Lance cavalry - Marcacos (cavalryman). Marcos is another word for the horse, more common in the island than in the continent.
    • Swordman - Batoros (who-hit-hard, fighter) or Excingos (attacker, who-get-out-to-fight). The Caledonians are described as using longswords and small shield and the Picts are described fighting naked.
    • War-Dogs - Agrocuna (battle/bloody/killer dog)
  • City
    • Champion chariot warrior - Esseda (war chariot). The Britons use war chariots with a driver and an elite warrior, they throw javelins from it and continue the fight on foot (possibility for the unit to transport one infantryman ?)
    • Champion swordsman - Argos (battle champion, noble), Donnouicos (noble warrior, noble fighter) or Adscoros (attendant, retainer).
    • Champion skirmisher infantryman - Caur (old-Irish for champion) or Art (old-Irish for champion and bear).  A propose an Irish elite javelinist, with a historical irish shortsword. If the double weapons switch is implanted, it could be an interesting unit. Polyvalent. 

 

Edited by Genava55
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38 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

I don't know if you are talking about the vanilla game or about a mod.

If everything goes according to plan might be the same :)

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22 hours ago, stanislas69 said:

If everything goes according to plan might be the same :)

Ok, then I understand better. I was trying to do something simpler to not make Celts OP for the others factions. 

What about a choice of regional champions for the Gauls?

Gauls roster:

  • Village
    • Swordman - Cingetos (generic term for warrior fighting in the front line).
    • Javelin skirmisher - Bagauda (bellicose/fighter)
    • Lance cavalry - Excingos (attacker, who-get-out-to-fight).
  • Town
    • Champion naked warrior (spearman) - Bariogaisatos (furious spearman). Fast and scary for fresh recruit (bonus against basic version of units ?) 
    • Sword cavalry - Eporedos (cavalryman).
    • Spearman - Ambactos (who-is-around, attested word from Caesar for Gallic retinue and clients). 
    • Slinger - Telmiuicos (slinger)
  • City
    • Champion sword horseman - Comaterecos (patrician)
    • Archer - Selgos (hunter) - Archers. Upgrade for the slinger?
    • One champion chosen by the player from this list during the third phase:
      • Champion Lance cavalry - Epouanos (horse-killer). Anti-cavalry special unit. Regional Celto-Germanic.
      • Champion Swordsman - Soliduros (Bodyguard). Regional Aquitanian.
      • Champion Axeman - Namantobogios (smasher of enemies). Regional Rhaetian (eastern alp). Based on an unique find, difficult to interpret.
Edited by Genava55
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23 minutes ago, Alexandermb said:

 boss shields could be used in multiple shape shields? For example A Boss used in A Shield Shape, B Shield Shape, C Shield Shape ?

I would say yes. The Salisbury shields show a  lot of variation and there is even one with a long spina (the spina is the number 5 on this schema):

image.png.c6657db9369eb518784f0e0fd258f582.png

 

Edited by Genava55
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1 minute ago, Genava55 said:

I would say yes. The Salisbury shields show a  lot of variation and there is even on with a long spina (the spina is the number 5 on this schema):

image.png.c6657db9369eb518784f0e0fd258f582.png

 

Perfect then, i was interested in this shield topic and thought it would be a better idea to have the Boss as a prop being this better for reduce the amount of meshes per shield and increasing more variety:

Spoiler

image.png

 

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16 minutes ago, Alexandermb said:

Perfect then, i was interested in this shield topic and thought it would be a better idea to have the Boss as a prop being this better for reduce the amount of meshes per shield and increasing more variety:

Generally, the round spina (without the long staff parts) is a feature of the late La Tène, 1st century BC. As with the round shield boss that goes on it.

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@Sundiata @Nescio @stanislas69

A question about how much do you want to respect an accuracy about the weapons for the game. Currently there is an evolution of the weaponry on a large timespan that is used by the artists to design the units. 4 centuries of differences, it is mandatory that it ends a bit anachronistic. It is not really that bad, but I want to ask your opinion first.

  1. We can either let it like this, using all the items we want on the same unit to add the maximum of varieties. No regards for accuracy between the items used by an unit. For example a Berru helmet (5th / 4th century) and a shield with a round shield boss (1st century BC) on the same unit.
  2. Or we can follow simple guideline for the unit upgrade with experience. For example the infantryman get a Montefortino helmet (4th / 3rd century) in his advanced version but when he reaches the elite version he get a later helmet like the Alesia or the Port helmet. The same logic for the shield bosses. Thus each upgrade from experience follows a temporal evolution logic. Which is fairly simple, it is only Early and Middle La Tène versus Late La Tène.
  3. Or a logic based on the moment the unit got available. Village = Early La Tène ; Town = Middle La Tène; City = Late La Tène. The champion units will only have Late La Tène equipment.
  4. Finally, a mixture of 2 and 3.
Edited by Genava55

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11 minutes ago, Genava55 said:
  • Or we can follow simple guideline for the unit upgrade with experience. For example the infantryman get a Montefortino helmet (4th / 3rd century) in his advanced version but when he reaches the elite version he get a later helmet like the Alesia or the Port helmet. The same logic for the shield bosses. Thus each upgrade from experience follows a temporal evolution logic. Which is fairly simple, it is only Early and Middle La Tène versus Late La Tène.
  • Or a logic based on the moment the unit got available. Village = Early La Tène ; Town = Middle La Tène; City = Late La Tène. The champion units will only have Late La Tène equipment.
  • Finally, a mixture of 2 and 3.

That's my personal preference (for most other civs as well actually)

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I believe (though thinking about it I'm not sure anymore) than the idea was that the unit "experience" levels where meant to depict  their wealth. Like say from the cannonfodder to the elite bodyguard. Of course it could also depict historical evolution; I just would find it weird if the more you make research the less the unit is equipped.

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21 minutes ago, stanislas69 said:

I just would find it weird if the more you make research the less the unit is equipped.

:blink: I don't understand, I am not saying this.

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2 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

:blink: I don't understand, I am not saying this.

Sorry, I meant, if for some reason units stopped using shields, it would be weird to have the higher ranks without shields right :) As long as it's helmets and shield bosses should be fine. 

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Just now, stanislas69 said:

Sorry, I meant, if for some reason units stopped using shields, it would be weird to have the higher ranks without shields right :) As long as it's helmets and shield bosses should be fine.  

Ah yes. I understand. In this case, it is only simple choices for the helmets and shield bosses. Maybe a few textures too. But nothing that could be weird for a casual player.

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A Quick preview of the shield Spinas & Bosses (if its called like that correct my if i'm wrong before uploading files when finished the shields because re orden them when they are in the bunch of files is a pain :P) @Genava55

Spoiler

image.pngimage.pngimage.pngimage.pngimage.pngimage.pngimage.pngimage.pngimage.pngimage.pngimage.pngimage.pngimage.png

So they can be used in every shield for a Wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiider variety of shields.

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8 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Generally, the round spina (without the long staff parts) is a feature of the late La Tène, 1st century BC. As with the round shield boss that goes on it.

 

8 hours ago, Genava55 said:

 

image.png.c6657db9369eb518784f0e0fd258f582.png

 

@Genava55 btw if you could name me every piece of the shield numered in there (and any other prop you see over there that can be reused in any shield) would help me when naming the files.

Materials you belive its appropiate for the shield if 2D artist can and are willing to help as lion and sundiata did earlier with a few draws i would be baking Base texture like this:

Spoiler

image.pngimage.pngimage.pngimage.pngimage.png

Name me the colors you find suittable for the shields and the materials (specially if they are having bronze shields or any other material you know).
Btw for now shields are generic and i'm using props only for preview purpose, if they are some faction exclusive only props they will be properly assigned and removed.

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2 hours ago, Alexandermb said:

btw if you could name me every piece of the shield numered in there (and any other prop you see over there that can be reused in any shield) would help me when naming the files.

1 is the lattis (or lathwork). 

4 is the orle (edge protection) 

5 the spina. 

6 the umbo (or shield boss) 

7 is the manipula (or handle) 

Another schema for the shield, in French. Most of the names are in fact Latin or medieval. 

dbfba5258b5a3fe50cf9f92fbd566029.jpg

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@wackyserious First shields with base wooden texture handle as prop too:Celtic_Shields.7z

9 Shield shapes so far:

Spoiler

image.pngimage.pngimage.pngimage.pngimage.pngimage.pngimage.pngimage.pngimage.png

And a new boss:

Spoiler

image.pngimage.png

Update:

  • Added reinforced variant for shield_c
Spoiler

image.png

  • Added a secondary manipula:
Spoiler

image.png

  • Added another base texture: for shield_i
Spoiler

image.png

  • Added another boss thought isn't very much visible from afar:
Spoiler

image.png

@Genava55 see if i theres any other shape/size that can be added.

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Wow. Amazing work, @Alexandermb

You really did something great. It is so great to see the facing griffins/birds/dragons symbols, these are symbols very popular on the continent from the 4th to the end of the 3rd century BC. The variations you did with the shapes and the spina are really great too.

 

10 hours ago, Alexandermb said:

 see if i theres any other shape/size that can be added.

For the Britons, you can make the long and narrow shape of the Witham shield.

Spoiler

image.png.7a25b9af588b660a03942cb9b8e0be2d.pngimage.png

 

For the spina shape, you can make an oval spina like on these shields, I don't think you have done it yet:

Spoiler

image.png.dc6fefd9f89e8351178da4b93bafd5ae.pngimage.png.63a388f021e1dc4229533148197f56df.pngimage.png.3718ab1ae5e953a6e9ede662d2056b49.png

You can also re-use the small square shield of the slinger. Although it doesn't need really any modification, nor any shield bosses.

 

For the Gauls, I think there are enough different big shield shapes. If you want you can add a medium large oval shield like it is depicted on this early La Tène scabbard:

Spoiler

image.png.a99c5e4b3d3846c91f189ccbcfcc9b39.png

Re-enactors interpretation, more egg shaped:

image.png.cc7016e2eb22abec025cde44e5b42d8b.pngimage.png.a7072249d5fe89337b393063ebbc3f73.png

 

 

For both Celtic factions, I think it should be great to do the medium size and rectangular shape of the Clonoura Shield:

Spoiler

image.png.4374e7363807c9a695ab9fa50f242a63.pngimage.png.bff8e3613b9fdb52660275b597d6b407.png

 

Now for shield bosses, I can suggest you for the Gauls these early/medium La Tène version:

Spoiler

image.png.5da1fbff4afe290a7c65633c0bcae195.png

image.thumb.png.83cef66539128bdb02132048bcf8a4b7.pngimage.png.db2eecaf6c6a358cb72178f0666824a8.png

image.thumb.png.ed375050ea98ea4e7c11fdc8de9ebba6.pngimage.png.44dba6a5ec5ed44abbbfc2655466e4b4.png

 

For the Gauls again, the shield bosses of the Late La Tène phase:

Spoiler

image.png.f83932787b170cb01a2ddc934f4cd3b4.png

image.png.5a6cffd4b93cb64a32e40467d800ca8c.png

image.png.50fb5305414dffae49b1042a845c7752.png

Number 8 is a germanic variation that started to be used by the Gauls during the Gallic Wars and post Gallic Wars period

 

 

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