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balduin

Deforestation - Wood should be a renwable resource

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6 hours ago, wackyserious said:

This should be a separate entity from pre-existing trees. I like the idea of tree groves by @wowgetoffyourcellphone and if you cut down a grove, the chances of regrowing trees would be none. Also, what if these tree groves also auto-spawn animals, and biome specific groves will spawn biome specific fauna, that would be very cool. :) More subtle approach could be implemented too, like a non-selectable map trigger.

Indeed. If regen is ever committed what I would do is make stragglers (individual trees) not regenerate, but I would make groves slowly regen their wood over time when not being chopped. 

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On 10/19/2018 at 4:40 PM, Imperator Ferrum Princeps I said:

how about units being able to "build" saplings that turn into adult trees over time and farm trees like they do animals lategame?

this is an amazing idea ik that where i live tree farms are pretty common

 

8 hours ago, Nescio said:

Personally I think fish and fruit ought to regenerative, but not wood. Spawning saplings (and young animals) is an interesting idea, but implementing it in a natural way is not straightforward.

true then again shouldn't fish be infinite cause ik for sure that they have been fishing the grand banks in nova scotia for at least 500 years and there is still fish there, also there are many other places around the world where they have been fishing for long periods of time

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6 hours ago, JamesWright said:

true then again shouldn't fish be infinite cause ik for sure that they have been fishing the grand banks in nova scotia for at least 500 years and there is still fish there, also there are many other places around the world where they have been fishing for long periods of time

On the other hand, many fish species are endangered and some have gone extinct due to overfishing, so infinite fish isn't entirely realistic either. I suppose the proper way would be to have a regeneration rate sufficiently high so that fish won't get depleted by one or two fishing boats, but will disappear when more are fishing the same school.

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1 hour ago, Nescio said:

On the other hand, many fish species are endangered and some have gone extinct due to overfishing, so infinite fish isn't entirely realistic either. I suppose the proper way would be to have a regeneration rate sufficiently high so that fish won't get depleted by one or two fishing boats, but will disappear when more are fishing the same school.

Very true but, what king of fish are u pulling out of a fishing boat's net?

Mullet and Sardines and lots of other bait fish you're not catching tuna in a net unless its small ie. a baby or juvenile

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7 hours ago, Nescio said:

the proper way would be to have a regeneration rate sufficiently high so that fish won't get depleted by one or two fishing boats

Yes, exactly that would be the idea. Make resources regrow slowly.

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23 hours ago, Enrique said:

Mindlessly harvesting the resources in the map without caring since they'll be infinite is just removing a core part of an rts with resource management.

I think you did not really understand this topic. Nobody, was ever saying they will regrow so fast that you will have infinite resources. This topic is mainly about renewable resources (trees, berries, animals) regrowing slowly.

There are two RTS, I know of, where resources regrow. Trees regrow slowly in Stronghold Crusader. Animals and trees regrow slowly in Empire Earth.

@Enrique if you play competitive multiplayer nothing will change for you. You will harvest resources so fast that there will be nothing left to regrow. However, if you will have a longer lasting single player game against AI you can see resources like trees, berries and animals regrow.

The real benefit would be in single player campaigns in which you are in a disadvantaged position and have to manage resources very carefully.

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21 minutes ago, balduin said:

I think you did not really understand this topic. Nobody, was ever saying they will regrow so fast that you will have infinite resources. This topic is mainly about renewable resources (trees, berries, animals) regrowing slowly.

There are two RTS, I know of, where resources regrow. Trees regrow slowly in Stronghold Crusader. Animals and trees regrow slowly in Empire Earth.

@Enrique if you play competitive multiplayer nothing will change for you. You will harvest resources so fast that there will be nothing left to regrow. However, if you will have a longer lasting single player game against AI you can see resources like trees, berries and animals regrow.

The real benefit would be in single player campaigns in which you are in a disadvantaged position and have to manage resources very carefully.

Please don't add that to campaing. As you said manage the resources very careful.

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4 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Please don't add that to campaing. As you said manage the resources very careful.

What you mean? Resource regrowing should not be added in campaigns or should be added?

In case you meant resource regrowing should not be added, can you explain why?

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6 minutes ago, balduin said:

should not be added

That, you said it. Is better be wise to manage this resources.

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@Lion.Kanzen I think I did not make my point clear. In my opinion it is very important that resources regrow in single player campaigns.

It is important for campaigns that natural resources can regrow. Especially, if you are in a disadvantage position, you will not have a chance against an enemy. Especially, in those cases where you cannot trade (with yourself), getting resources otherwise will be very difficult. Having some trees you can get wood of which slowly regrow can be a very important feature.

Without the regrow feature, the campaigns will end up being the same as single player games: build your city, build your army, rush for resources and finally destroy the enemy. This is maybe a little oversimplified.

Regardless, I do want campaigns in which one has a small island or small piece of land and has to do the best out of it, maybe even without advancing to the next phases. This will be hard to play those campaigns without regrowing resources.

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7 minutes ago, balduin said:

@Lion.Kanzen I think I did not make my point clear. In my opinion it is very important that resources regrow in single player campaigns.

It is important for campaigns that natural resources can regrow. Especially, if you are in a disadvantage position, you will not have a chance against an enemy. Especially, in those cases where you cannot trade (with yourself), getting resources otherwise will be very difficult. Having some trees you can get wood of which slowly regrow can be a very important feature.

Without the regrow feature, the campaigns will end up being the same as single player games: build your city, build your army, rush for resources and finally destroy the enemy. This is maybe a little oversimplified.

Regardless, I do want campaigns in which one has a small island or small piece of land and has to do the best out of it, maybe even without advancing to the next phases. This will be hard to play those campaigns without regrowing resources.

Give an example such campaing scenario, may be in other RTS gamie.

I played AoE  1 campaigns where even are such thing as markets.

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6 hours ago, balduin said:

It is important for campaigns that natural resources can regrow. Especially, if you are in a disadvantage position, you will not have a chance against an enemy. Especially, in those cases where you cannot trade (with yourself), getting resources otherwise will be very difficult. Having some trees you can get wood of which slowly regrow can be a very important feature.

You're overlooking the fact that if you control only a small area with few trees, you'll benefit much less from regeneration than your opponents who have access to far more forests.

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14 hours ago, balduin said:

Regardless, I do want campaigns in which one has a small island or small piece of land and has to do the best out of it, maybe even without advancing to the next phases. This will be hard to play those campaigns without regrowing resources.

Maybe I'm being too harsh based on my experience.

The wood is not so easy to cut, except for certain maps.

Even so in the campaigns there should be bonus if you do some secondary quest.

 

AOE 2 campaigns  you have this.

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9 hours ago, Nescio said:

You're overlooking the fact that if you control only a small area with few trees, you'll benefit much less from regeneration than your opponents who have access to far more forests.

Yes, if you think only about the production. However, if you have a difficult to attack position. For example a fortress city on top a hill. In those cases, the enemy can attack you with many of units and still loose all troops. You at the same time loose only non or only a few units. In such a scenario, one can profit much more from the regeneration of renewable resources.

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On 8/3/2019 at 4:50 PM, balduin said:

Yes, if you think only about the production. However, if you have a difficult to attack position. For example a fortress city on top a hill. In those cases, the enemy can attack you with many of units and still loose all troops. You at the same time loose only non or only a few units. In such a scenario, one can profit much more from the regeneration of renewable resources.

The scenario you describe in very complex.
It should be optional by the mapmaker.

If you entered to play a campaign and misspent the resources, there should be a consequence.

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One should also account for how trees will affect building layout. Walls like any other buildings cannot be placed on trees, but units can pass through trees (unlike AoE where you can use forest as your walls). Sometimes you might play in a random map, and somehow the starting position is in the middle of forest. How quick can you clear the land to place houses and barracks? This should be put into consideration.

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6 minutes ago, azayrahmad said:

One should also account for how trees will affect building layout. Walls like any other buildings cannot be placed on trees, but units can pass through trees (unlike AoE where you can use forest as your walls). Sometimes you might play in a random map, and somehow the starting position is in the middle of forest. How quick can you clear the land to place houses and barracks? This should be put into consideration.

Delenda Est has (mostly) fixed this. 

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2 minutes ago, balduin said:

How?

You can build any structures over (individual) trees. So, what this solves is that random trees don't screw up your base layout and prevent you from building a nice circuit of walls. The exception to this is Forest Groves, which you cannot build through (and which would make a great candidate for the renewable resource feature).

Edited by wowgetoffyourcellphone
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So, in Delenda Est, trees have no obstruction. Units (C) can walk through them. This may help with pathfinding computations (have not tested thoroughly, just anecdotal). Straggler Trees (A) can be built over and removed by structures (D). This removes the tree* and allows the player more base building freedom and removes some minor frustration with not having enough room for the player's base and walls. Forest Groves (B) have 5000 wood (comparable to a 5000 stone or metal mine), and cannot be built over. Units can still walk through them, but the Groves have an "Underbrush" aura that reduces speed, vision range, and missile range within the grove**.

 

screenshot0203.thumb.jpg.3e520e86b63e43e42ffc43c3ac12e57d.jpg

Regarding Renewable wood, the Groves could have the renewable feature, where they slowly regain their wood resource if left alone. While the straggler trees wouldn't do this. The Groves are an abstract, they represent a whole grove of trees and ecosphere, so their replenishment makes sense. A single tree just represents a single tree, so would make less sense to renew. 

 

 

* Need an extension that colors the tree Red when the structure preview is waved over it to tell the player the tree will be destroyed.

** We could extend the Grove feature further by allowing certain units or civs the ability to "garrison" in them and simulate an ambush feature. These ambush units would be ungarrisoned if the Grove reaches 50% or less wood. They'd be ungarrisonable if they were in the process of being chopped by an enemy unit.

Edited by wowgetoffyourcellphone
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25 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

 We could extend the Grove feature further by allowing certain units or civs the ability to "garrison" in them and simulate an ambush feature. These ambush units would be ungarrisoned if the Grove reaches 50% or less wood. They'd be ungarrisonable if they were in the process of being chopped by an enemy unit.

I wonder if we could the camouflage thing from #3177 by using @Mate-86's status effects on the visibility component.

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23 minutes ago, Stan` said:

I wonder if we could the camouflage thing from #3177* by using @Mate-86's status effects on the visibility component

*Here is the link to the patch: https://trac.wildfiregames.com/ticket/3177

Camouflaging would be awesome. The video game Praetorians implemented a camouflaging feature. It was not possible for all units to go into dense forests.

qxhgr964p2krv7qbfniz.thumb.jpg.7d3079192251920a131a44e9fc6ad33b.jpg

Original source: https://images.igdb.com/igdb/image/upload/t_original/qxhgr964p2krv7qbfniz.jpg

For example, horse units where not able to go into a dense forest. Expect for a Germanic champion unit, which was able to attack even in forests.

Praetorians also implemented scout units with a dog. The scout units where able to send there dog into the forest. This way you where able to see what enemy units hide in the forest. The nice thing was, you could not kill the dog. However, the dog was running back the moment they encountered enemy units. Basically, you where only able to see a glance of the units as long as the dog was in the forest.

In addition, the dog was only able to walk a certain distance. This was implemented by reducing the stamina of the scout unit. The stamina only recharged when the dog was back with the scout. To eliminate the dog you had to kill the scout unit. Then both died.

 

 

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