Flare disabled for observers

[Darkcity]

@Stan` Why did we disable flare for observers? Is there a reason for that? I think allowing observers to see player's flare shouldn't be an issue. It's good for replays and observering the game in general.

[Stan`]

23 minutes ago, Darkcity said:

@Stan` Why did we disable flare for observers? Is there a reason for that? I think allowing observers to see player's flare shouldn't be an issue. It's good for replays and observering the game in general.

Abuse prevention. And cheating.

[KarissaX]

I think a spec flare would be useful, especially a flare that is only visible to other specs. That will aid our discussions and commentary.

[Player of 0AD]

Flare in replays doesnt lead to cheating i guess. Btw replays need a bigger music variation, not only 3 tracks and then eternal silence

[Darkcity]

@Stan` If players wants to cheat they can cheat on alternative mediums like discord. I understand the use case where observers might communcate falre of one team to another but that doesn't really add any additional/unique info, which they can't share on discord. Allowing observers to see player's falre for observer experience, for discussion and commerntries would be great.

 

8 hours ago, KarissaX said:

I think a spec flare would be useful, especially a flare that is only visible to other specs. That will aid our discussions and commentary.

Not many players observer game throughoutly, so not sure main game should have it. It's definitely a good idea to be added in Boon GUI. @seeh if you are still making changes in it :P.

[hyperion]

41 minutes ago, Darkcity said:

If players wants to cheat they can cheat on alternative mediums like discord

There is a huge difference, if you use an alternative medium is deliberate cheating anyway you look at it. If you have the tool right at your finger tip and it's part of the official game it's hard to prevent accidental reveals or even call it cheating. This phenomena is all to well known form some people in the passenger seat in cars.

[Darkcity]

You are right @go2die. Observers can only talked to observers in the game, or send message to everyone. If a observer wants to say something (give info to a player) then he can say irrespective of flare, and besides that chat is visible to all, so host can ban the observer. 

My point is player flare visibile to observers is not adding anything extra that can give away something or can be called as new cheat.

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For the feature "observer flare", it can be added but should be tested out in mod first to test out whether it get traction from observers, becasue as i mentioned earlier.

3 hours ago, Darkcity said:

Not many players observer game throughoutly, so not sure main game should have it.

And commentators usually go for Boon GUI, so it should be added there.

[Darkcity]

3 hours ago, go2die said:

There should be only 1 concern - misusing it too much to "spam" other observers. So other observers could have filter on/off for such other observers flares, or limit usage 1 per minute/ should be ok...

Hmm, this is for second feature, "Flares for onservers, where observers can flare and that will be visible to other observers", which I think we should add in mod example: Boon GUI.

For first feature "Allow observers to see player flare", I don't think we have any (actual) issue. Should be added in main game as well..

[hyperion]

6 hours ago, go2die said:

Sorry can some dev really explain what kind of cheating with flares are concerned?

As long as the game allows it I argue it wont be cheating by definition.

For me observers should not have any means to talk / signal / influence players in any way in-game. They are observers. As for the current flare implementation I guess it's also due a constraint on the implementation that was possible to get shipped in time and not the ultimate solution thinkable.

A third role besides player and observer might make sense, lets call it referee or game master, a role which is meant to preside over competitive games with rules not enforced by the engine.

[Darkcity]

@hyperion I'm not able to understand your conern. I need to know whats your concern on first use case "Observers able to see player's flares". Let me give you an example and what will happen so its clear to you.

We have 8 player game. Player1 initiate the flare. 

Current scenario: Hi team mates Plyare2,3,4 will able to see the flare.

Expected Scenario: Observer will also see the flare.

Now, If observer wants to do cheating he can do 2 things

1. Text on chat which is visible to everyone
2. Communicated by another medium like discord.

First case, an obsever can put anything about player1 on chat, he might as well share player other stats like units food wood and women. What will obsever achieve by putting a text to everyone that "Player1 has flared or Player1 has flared at 8'O clock"? Allowing him to see the flare doesn't add any cheat. 

Second case, again not the problem of flare.

@hyperion If you are thinking of any other scenario, please explain, becasue I'm able to unserstand the probelm here.

@Stan` Can you please mention the concern related to "Observers can see player's flare" becasue of that we are saying 

On 24/07/2022 at 7:42 PM, Stan` said:

Abuse prevention. And cheating.

 

[alre]

47 minutes ago, hyperion said:

As long as the game allows it I argue it wont be cheating by definition.

observers are currently able to talk to players if they want to, from game chat, not only from external tools. the game allows it because it's indeed a game and made for leisure, but it can easily be considered cheating if strategic information is passed.

[Darkcity]

I think i'm able to clarify. Let me reiterate.

1. Observers can't text privately to any player, they option to chat with everyone, or to single onserver or all observers. So, if they want to anything to say anything everyone will see it. [Screenshot from game a moment ago]

8 minutes ago, alre said:

observers are currently able to talk to players if they want to

2. If they want to give away any strategic info, they would rather talk about pop, resources, upgrades, no of womens, any other information about player, then why it is cheating he says "Player1 has flared or Player1 has flared at 8'O clock".

15 minutes ago, alre said:

can easily be considered cheating if strategic information is passed.

 

@hyperion, @alre, please help me understand the issue. Becasue oberser able to flare doesn't add any new cheat to the game. 

[hyperion]

13 minutes ago, alre said:

observers are currently able to talk to players if they want to, from game chat, not only from external tools. the game allows it because it's indeed a game and made for leisure, but it can easily be considered cheating if strategic information is passed.

I'd call that spoiling not cheating, as for being able to chat to players I'd prefer if it wasn't possible honestly, then you could permit observers without concern.

 

32 minutes ago, Darkcity said:

@hyperion I'm not able to understand your conern.

I don't mind any observer features as long as they have no means to influence the players.

[Darkcity]

6 minutes ago, hyperion said:

I'd call that spoiling not cheating, as for being able to chat to players I'd prefer if it wasn't possible honestly, then you could permit observers without concern.

I mean message goes from observer to everyone so. But I think we can introduce a feature to mute observers be default in setting or by command in-game. But that will be separate discussion. 

Here I justed wanted to point out that observer able to see player's flare is like observer able to see any other details of the player, so, it's not adding anything new cheating wise. I hope it was clear :p.

[hyperion]

4 minutes ago, Darkcity said:

Here I justed wanted to point out that observer able to see player's flare is like observer able to see any other details of the player, so, it's not adding anything new cheating wise. I hope it was clear :p.

I get that point, but the implementation is currently restraint as far as I understand @Stan` s comment, it would take quite a bit to make this possible without opening the floodgates. I might have misunderstood the comment as well though.

[Darkcity]

Hmm right, thats why wanted to understand dev point of view like what extactly is the issue are we talking about, the use cases/scenarios that were considered to disable this. 

[Stan`]

I guess a good first step would be to actually read the conversation here https://code.wildfiregames.com/D1751

@Imarok can probably give some insight too.

19 hours ago, Player of 0AD said:

Flare in replays doesnt lead to cheating i guess. Btw replays need a bigger music variation, not only 3 tracks and then eternal silence

Is that new ?

19 hours ago, go2die said:

You care too much of cheating, it is easier to cheat on side-way channels. 

Given how many people abuse the lobby I do not think I am. And sure. Nothing is foolproof.

 

As for observer only flares, sure why not, but I'm not sure the engine allows it @Freagarach

[rossenburg]

1 hour ago, Darkcity said:

I think i'm able to clarify. Let me reiterate.

1. Observers can't text privately to any player, they option to chat with everyone, or to single onserver or all observers. So, if they want to anything to say anything everyone will see it. [Screenshot from game a moment ago]

2. If they want to give away any strategic info, they would rather talk about pop, resources, upgrades, no of womens, any other information about player, then why it is cheating he says "Player1 has flared or Player1 has flared at 8'O clock".

 

@hyperion, @alre, please help me understand the issue. Becasue oberser able to flare doesn't add any new cheat to the game. 

if I'm right, when observers use their flare, actual players shouldn't see it yeah? If the flare is solely needed for observers excluding players then why not. I understand sometimes when observer are watching a Tg they want to point to exactly where there is action or where they are talking about in the chat ( this should be helpful ). But i guess observers seeing players flare won't be cool because first of all you are able to see all players POS ( since you are observer ) so there's no need to see players using their flares unless you wish to see what they are up to, example planning an attack or something. If this feature will be added, i guess the host should be able decide whether to enable or disable it, what do you think?

[Player of 0AD]

59 minutes ago, Stan` said:

Is that new ?

No

[Darkcity]

If I about to summarize it

• Objective: Imporve observer's experience
• Requirments/suggestions: we have 2 suggestions
  1. Allow observers to see player's flare
  2. Add an observer flare visibile to only observers
• Analysis

  Feature	Concern	Context	Comment
  Spec can see player's flare	Spamming/Abuse	In game	Only view is allowed, so no issue
  		External Mediums	Only view is allowed, so no issue
  	Cheating	In game	Obsever can text everyone, flare is just like any other info available to observer, so, no issue. Host bans observers if shares info.
  		External Mediums	Its a info avilable to spec just like anyother info, if they want to cheat they can user other important info then talking about flare. no additional cheat added.
  Observer can flare to other observers	Spamming/Abuse	In Game	To other observers he might annoy, but he can annoy by texting them too. A little possibility.
  		External Mediums	NA
  	Cheating	In Game	NA
  		External Mediums	NA

There are minor points but nothing to concerned about.

@Stan` I checked the the ticket, we didn't want to add an observer flare which is visible to player, so we disabled it. Nothing else had more description.

@rossenburg

2 hours ago, rossenburg said:

planning an attack or something

That you can tell when players starts to move or by any other means. Flare can be for any reason. Besides as I mention, whatever the reason flare is just a info about a player (which we might not know or can interpret given situation). It is like any other info about player, so, not sure why we given it an exception. It is not enabling any new way to communicate between player and observers. 

Just my thoughs. Becasue, it is only adding more info to observer for experience not giving any new ways to allow cheat.

[Freagarach]

On 27/07/2022 at 6:09 PM, Stan` said:

As for observer only flares, sure why not, but I'm not sure the engine allows it @Freagarach

IIRC flares are currently simulation commands and observers cannot send those. As for the engine itself, no clue, sorry. ^^

[chrstgtr]

On 27/07/2022 at 2:27 PM, Darkcity said:

To other observers he might annoy, but he can annoy by texting them too. A little possibility.

This is the same as chat, which reminds me how the vanilla game should have a mute function implemented. 

[Vantha]

Is this still relevant?

I actually made a patch for observer flares a couple of months back and even created some art for it. (Although the implementation might be somewhat questionable)

[Vantha]

Well, anyway, here are some more details:

- Because all observers would flare in the same color (namely white) I also added an option for flare chat notifications.

- Who can see whose flares is pretty simple to change codewise, we only need to come to agree on one possibility. To conclude this thread so far: there are no concerns raised about allowing observers to send flares to other observers. What remains debated, is whether observers can see the players' flares. I'm of the opinion they should.

[Stan`]

I think they should too. The point is they should not interfere with the game. Another question is whether there is a difference between a defeated player and an observer