ranged infantry move speed

[LetswaveaBook]

Currently the archer is the ranged unit with the least damage and it moves 1.5 m/s slower than the javelineer. This means that the archer can't fight a charging mob of javelineers and their slow speed means they receive a lot of damage on the retreat or get completely annihilated.

Currently the speed for the Ranged units are 11.4, 10.8 and 9.9 m/s. I would consider it an improvement if the weaker unit has a better chance to escape. So I would suggest 11.1 m/s speed for the skirmisher and 10.5 m/s speed for the archer.

Edited June 5, 2022 by LetswaveaBook

[ChronA]

I don't think archer are supposed to be able to fight or escape from a charging mob of javelineers, they are supposed to beat them by staying at standoff range with a meatshield or buildings protecting them from the enemy. If archers could also kite other ranged infantry that would once again turn them into a very hard counter to all infantry units, which does not seem in the spirit of 0 AD. Plus a speed change would boost their economic value and create chaos for civ balance (again).

[LetswaveaBook]

23 minutes ago, ChronA said:

Plus a speed change would boost their economic value and create chaos for civ balance (again).

There is still chaos. The only thing is that you have beocme accustomed to this type of chaos.

[Yekaterina]

13 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

. I would consider it an improvement if the weaker unit has a better chance to escape.

No, because the archers will be able to fire, retreat then fire again. There will be no counter. 

[ChronA]

1 hour ago, LetswaveaBook said:

There is still chaos. The only thing is that you have beocme accustomed to this type of chaos.

You've got me there. I agree. 

[Philip the Swaggerless]

2 hours ago, ChronA said:

I don't think archer are supposed to be able to fight or escape from a charging mob of javelineers, they are supposed to beat them by staying at standoff range with a meatshield or buildings protecting them from the enemy.

No they are supposed to beat them by decimating them with arrows before the javelineers can reach them not by standing behind a meatshield.  Just not in this game.

[alre]

2 hours ago, Sevda said:

No, because the archers will be able to fire, retreat then fire again. There will be no counter. 

fortifications of the humblest kind will always be a hard counter to archers. also even in a24 horse archers could be countered by armies of spartan hoplites (or the such) by just hitting the persian city like a meetball of death full of rams.

please give back to archers some use, raise their speed.

[Yekaterina]

23 minutes ago, alre said:

please give back to archers some use, raise their speed.

Their use is sniping units from a long range, which is much more effective in real game than in scenario editors. For example, if a team of javlineers and archers are fighting in a woodline, the javlineers will have to dodge the trees (makes path longer) then try to squeeze themselves in at the correct range. The archers can land many more hits in advance and the geometry always favours long ranged units. 

Even on flat ground, 60 skirmishers + 10 archers can beat 70 pure skirmishers, because the archers can just separate themselves from the skirmisher mass instead of wasting time pathfinding around each other, so archers are useful. However, pure archer spam will always result in failure. 

[alre]

13 minutes ago, Sevda said:

For example, if a team of javlineers and archers are fighting in a woodline, the javlineers will have to dodge the trees (makes path longer) then try to squeeze themselves in at the correct range. The archers can land many more hits in advance and the geometry always favours long ranged units. 

@#$%ing no. rushing woodlines with archers is very frustrating, next to masochist, because skirms "dodge the trees" easily and come kill the archers like it's nothing. even sniping over spearmen doesn't help that much.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

4 minutes ago, alre said:

even sniping over spearmen doesn't help that much

this is much more effective with merc archers where you can actually hit the target more. 15 merc archers with a skirm/pike army allows for sniping enemy ranged units effectively.

I would say the biggest thing with archers is they rarely get to use their range to the fullest. You have to kind of force it.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

Archers can be great units, but it takes some serious skill to unlock their potential compared to skirmishers or slingers. 
 

I would like to see archers stay a bit slower than skirms and slings but 1.5 m/s is a bit too big of a gap. 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

7 minutes ago, alre said:

@#$%ing no. rushing woodlines with archers is very frustrating, next to masochist, because skirms "dodge the trees" easily and come kill the archers like it's nothing. even sniping over spearmen doesn't help that much.

Archer rushed work great if it is a border battle over a wood line. Now you should certainly scout to make sure they are not making cav, but if you stay close to your border the speed difference won’t be a big issue.

[Dakara]

delete skirmish useless unit

[Yekaterina]

 

36 minutes ago, alre said:

@#$%ing no. rushing woodlines with archers is very frustrating, next to masochist, because skirms "dodge the trees" easily and come kill the archers like it's nothing. even sniping over spearmen doesn't help that much.

I find archers quite good at defending against cavalry rush. In early game you would have roughtly 8 archers and 2 spearmen. Immediately attack move the archers as soon as you see enemy cavalry coming, then move the 2 spearmen forwards between your archer and the javlin cavalry, then start dancing. if the cav are coming through the woods then they have already take quite a few hits and they will take more hits when they try to escape, so it's a  suicide for the cav player. Don't underestimate how well archers counter javlin cavalry. 

Similar story would apply for a pure javlin infantry rush, but if the enemy has javlin+ spear or slinger + spear then you have no chance. 

[Fabius]

Meanwhile siege tower go brrrrrrrr  

[Philip the Swaggerless]

16 minutes ago, Sevda said:

then start dancing.

 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

1 hour ago, Sevda said:

Similar story would apply for a pure javlin infantry rush, but if the enemy has javlin+ spear or slinger + spear then you have no chance. 

You could still micro the archers to hit the slingers/javs if you see it coming. If you outnumber the slingers/javelin you could option (dumb Mac key=Alt) click to kill them very quickly.

This is a skill that is not very hard to master but requires some focus.

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Archer rushed work great if it is a border battle over a wood line. Now you should certainly scout to make sure they are not making cav, but if you stay close to your border the speed difference won’t be a big issue.

in dense forest the elephants cannot enter .

Archers shelter and kill elephants inside of the forest.

[ChronA]

3 hours ago, alre said:

please give back to archers some use

For that they really need a unique role of their own to fill, separate from skirmishers and slingers. Right now all range infantry are just DPS sources. One of the three types is always going to be better at that than the others unless you make all their stats exactly identical. If they had different roles though, like if archers had bonus damage vs cavalry (there is some historical precedent for this) and skirmishers had extra hack armor on account of carrying a shield everywhere, and melee were actually viable DPS dealers and not just meat armor, you would no longer be comparing the two directly to each other because they no longer would be directly competing.

Of course that would require actually designing the game around functioning counter cycles rather than pop-history. 

[chrstgtr]

9 hours ago, LetswaveaBook said:

Currently the archer is the ranged unit with the least damage and it moves 1.5 m/s slower than the javelineer. This means that the archer can't fight a charging mob of javelineers and their slow speed means they receive a lot of damage on the retreat or get completely annihilated.

Currently the speed for the Ranged units are 11.4, 10.8 and 9.9 m/s. I would consider it an improvement if the weaker unit has a better chance to escape. So I would suggest 11.1 m/s speed for the skirmisher and 10.5 m/s speed for the archer.

That’s the point. Saying archers can’t escape charging javs is like saying inf can’t escape charging cav. Speed and higher DPS is the jav advantage. Range is the archer advantage 

 

What you suggest would cause the same problem for skirms relative to slings. 
 

All range units having the same speed was a big part of the problem with a24. 
 

There are a ton of ways to boost archers. This would probably be the last way I do it. 

Edited June 5, 2022 by chrstgtr

[Yekaterina]

I agree with @chrstgtr's view here, speed buff is not the most appropriate way to buff archers. There are better buffs:

• Increase their damage slightly
• Increase their range to maybe 65 or 70 metres
• Give them a 1.1x counter against cavalry. 

[alre]

16 minutes ago, Sevda said:

Increase their damage slightly

 just give to all ranged units the same stats already, if you want them all to play the same way.

18 minutes ago, Sevda said:

Increase their range to maybe 65 or 70 metres

that won't be much different than increasing their speed, just less engaging I guess.

19 minutes ago, Sevda said:

Give them a 1.1x counter against cavalry.

don't need it, they do fine already against cav.

[Yekaterina]

On 06/06/2022 at 10:08 AM, alre said:

 just give to all ranged units the same stats already, if you want them all to play the same way.

I am not suggesting to play all ranged units in the same way. Archers should be used to harass or demoralise the enemy from a very long distance away, hence the additional range. The second use is to snipe enemy ranged units in a big battle while reducing pathfinder inefficiencies for of your melee and skirmishers. But, they should not be able to escape from skirmishers or slingers to prevent  A24 from returning.

 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

On 06/06/2022 at 2:08 AM, alre said:

On 06/06/2022 at 1:46 AM, Sevda said:

Increase their damage slightly

 just give to all ranged units the same stats already, if you want them all to play the same way.

On 06/06/2022 at 1:46 AM, Sevda said:

Increase their range to maybe 65 or 70 metres

that won't be much different than increasing their speed, just less engaging I guess.

On 06/06/2022 at 1:46 AM, Sevda said:

Give them a 1.1x counter against cavalry.

don't need it, they do fine already against cav.

 

5 hours ago, Sevda said:

I am not suggesting to play all ranged units in the same way. Archers should be used to harass or demoralise the enemy from a very long distance away, hence the additional range. The second use is to snipe enemy ranged units in a big battle while reducing pathfinder inefficiencies for of your melee and skirmishers. But, they should not be able to escape from skirmishers or slingers to prevent  A24 from returning.

The biggest issue with archers is they rarely actually employ their range, because they are defaulted to shooting the closest unit (this also results in a lot of overkill because a single unit is likely to be the closest for a large percent of a group of archers).

You have a couple of micro options: if you manually target unit after unit in a group of enemies, there will also be much overkill, unless you only use 15 to 20 archers. The last option is to hold 'alt' or 'option' and individually target enemies (one archer, one enemy).  This option eliminates overkill, but takes a long time to kill the targeted units, especially if the archers have no accuracy buff.

This is why I advocate for attack-ground (basically volleys), as this would be a means for archers (and other ranged units) to attack a large group of units at range with a uniform damage distribution. Ideally, it would achieve an effect between the two existing micro options and provide an additional engaging skillset to the game. However, I would say something along these lines should wait until after some performance improvements.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

I was thinking to just increase their accuracy a bit since that would make them better at sniping other ranged units like they are currently most used for. If archers already have a bunch of accuracy (I thought we nerfed it from a24 and gave back a little in the form of an upgrade), then this wont help as much. 

When archers get rank 3, I believe they don't get extra damage (correct me if I am wrong). So SaidRdz has been able to win TGs by spamming pike+ archers as kush and leveling up his archers. He targets enemy ranged units and as they rank up, it seems to be more effective. Another solution might be to reduce rank-up xp with archers.