Differentiating Civilizations: Persian

[myou5e]

On 03/06/2022 at 6:05 PM, Lion.Kanzen said:

We must go for asymmetry.

I want all cultures to represent weakness and strength, true diversity.(Not the one sold to you by the elitist from WEF).

I love Asymmetry but WITH 13 CIVS  + BALANCE ? ? ? ?

:-p

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

2 minutes ago, myou5e said:

I love Asymmetry but WITH 13 CIVS  + BALANCE ? ? ? ?

:-p

We can do it!

[myou5e]

On 03/06/2022 at 3:47 PM, AIEND said:

Indian

毛利人 Is Maori. I hope we can have some Oceanic Friends in the game some day :-). I think the Mauryans are called 孔雀王朝 (Peacock Dynasty) in Mandarin right?

[myou5e]

2 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

We can do it!

I admire your optimism. But how do you stop things from going wrong? You have 91 matchups I think with 13 civs?  I think it's easier if you consider Meta to be part of game. I think Starcraft is the most balanced Asymmetric game, but they only have 3 civs with 6 possible 1v1 matchups. Any of those is very well balanced. But how can you test for 91? Only if some civs are "situational", which is the case in games like "DOTA" where you know there are good and bad picks.

My point is you have to sacrifice something, I think it's usability given certain matchups and certain maps, biomes etc.

[AIEND]

1 小时前，myou5e 说：

毛利人是毛利人。 我希望有一天我们能在游戏中拥有一些海洋之友 :-)。 我认为 Mauryans 被称为 孔雀王朝 (Peacock Dynasty) in Mandarin right?

In Chinese we use the term "摩揭陀mojietuo", which in English would be translated as "Magadha".

[chrstgtr]

4 hours ago, borg- said:

First patch is complete.

 

How do we install this? It is a .patch file, which I have never seen before. Putting it in the mod folder doesn't work. 

 

4 hours ago, borg- said:

- Add Icehouse.

Cant garrison

Built in own/neutral territory. Village Phase

Build time: 50sec

Cost: 100 wood

Food trickle 1/2sec. Building limit 30

This will open up some cool new build orders. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

8 hours ago, borg- said:

Cant garrison

Built in own/neutral territory. Village Phase

Build time: 50sec

Cost: 100 wood

Food trickle 1/2sec. Building limit 30

perhaps a range requirement like towers have? For example, you cannot build one too close to the other. This way, you cant put all 30 next to each other walled up.

It makes some sense from a realistic perspective too i guess.

[borg-]

I think I'll lower to 15 and increase the equivalent gain. I don't know if putting distance is good because it can be easily destroyed or captured, so putting restriction will force the player to put it away from their defenses.

20 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

Como instalamos isso? É um arquivo .patch, que eu nunca vi antes. Colocar na pasta mod não funciona. 

I will create a mod for this.

[alre]

On 03/06/2022 at 10:18 PM, chrstgtr said:

Some of these changes won’t be noticeable to the average player. And if this exercise is done for all civs then the traditional spear/archer/sword/skirm/etc. stats will become meaningless because too many civs will have one off special stat adjustments. I would want something that is easier to understand so each unit type is same across civs. Different unit types will be different even if they are similar (for example, pikes and spears are pretty similar to each other but we all understand how they are different). Making a system where a Persian spear is different from a Athens spear, which is different from a Brit spear, which is different from a Roman spear, will very quickly create a complicated system that can’t be easily understood. 

the game doesn't do anything to make you believe that persian sparabara (translated in game as shield bearer - spearman is only listed in little among their many classes) is the same unit as athenian hoplites. I believe it makes no sense to assume that random players understand that all CS units with a spear (but not a pike) have the same stats.

whatever notion you have about history and fighting, you wouldn't think that persian shield bearers have the same stats than all other spearmen, and the only way the game tells you that is by showing you the units stats. change those and the problem is solved.

33 minutes ago, borg- said:

I think I'll lower to 15 and increase the equivalent gain. I don't know if putting distance is good because it can be easily destroyed or captured, so putting restriction will force the player to put it away from their defenses.

they will just be used for walling like houses.

On 12/06/2022 at 3:59 PM, borg- said:

- Women defend themselves with bow. They can also hunt wild animals with bow.

I wouldn't assume that a mostly agricultural, patriarchal society like the ancient persian one, had many women learning to use the bow. just saying.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

13 minutes ago, alre said:

they will just be used for walling like houses.

On 12/06/2022 at 9:59 AM, borg- said:

The distance just needs to be large enough to prevent walling. 10 or 20 meters. 

[LetswaveaBook]

On 12/06/2022 at 3:59 PM, borg- said:

- Add Icehouse.

Cant garrison

Built in own/neutral territory. Village Phase

Build time: 50sec

Cost: 100 wood

Food trickle 1/2sec. Building limit 30

When I searched on the internet for Persian Ice houses, the idea of adding the to the game felt very good. The most logical bonus would be food related and I like the idea of a food trickle as it encourages to build more than a single one.

It seems natural to compare the cost of the ice house to a farmer. So for 5 farmers we have a cost of

250 food for training 5 women

100 wood for a field + 75 wood for building the housing for 5 women,

75 seconds construction time.

Without farming upgrades, they produce as much as 5 ice houses (as proposed) in the mod. But the cost of the Ice houses is 500 wood and 250 seconds build time. So fields seem preferable to me even if you lack all farming upgrades. Currently the main advantage of the building seems to be that it does not require population space. @borg- I am interested what your ideas are behind these numbers.

1 hour ago, borg- said:

I think I'll lower to 15 and increase the equivalent gain.

I think this is a better idea. If the cost and the gain per Ice house are higher, then instead of being spammed, each one brings a more noticeable impact.

My suggestion would be 100 wood+100 stone+50 seconds build time. So at the start of the game, you have a unique way of using your stone. If you have some leftover stone at the start, you can fully utilize it for ice houses, but it means you need to go to stone before getting the 3rd barracks. So that would give the interesting question on how many ice houses you build at the start of the game and how you combine it with your build order.

On 03/06/2022 at 11:04 PM, LetswaveaBook said:

Persian architecture tech

Farming gets more efficient as more eco technologies are being researched. The Ice house seems to lag behind more and more for every farming technology that gets researched. I think it would be fitting if the Persian Architecture tech also provided +20% resource tickle for ice houses (as well as a +20% territory boost).

[real_tabasco_sauce]

2 hours ago, borg- said:

I don't know if putting distance is good because it can be easily destroyed or captured, so putting restriction will force the player to put it away from their defenses.

I think there should at least be a little, because it seems cheap to put all 15 in a completely safe area. Also, what would be the point of building them in neutral terrain if they are better off safe at home?

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

The distance just needs to be large enough to prevent walling. 10 or 20 meters. 

yes, the distance is doubly valuable it seems.

[Lion.Kanzen]

On 12/06/2022 at 9:57 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

We can do it!

we need to vote on this option once and for all. i'm tired of all civs playing the same way.

[soloooy0]

57 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

we need to vote on this option once and for all. i'm tired of all civs playing the same way.

all civ they need to be unique
elephans demange in 360 all
charriots + more cost + distance + precision + hp + space habitant and slow moviment
ships especific capacity, max siege and eles for all ships
tecnologies uniques and champios especific: catafractes +armor+ hp and slow movient, soliferrum iber plz T.T, roman road, macedonia need siege en phase 2 or champios ...

[Lion.Kanzen]

Just now, soloooy0 said:

soliferrum iber plz T.T

including unique technologies takes time.

the priority is the generic tech tree and then the cultural/regional  tech tree.

[soloooy0]

8 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

including unique technologies takes time.

the priority is the generic tech tree and then the cultural/regional  tech tree.

the current tech tree must also be modified, no important decisions are made
all upgrades help everyone: infantry, cav, meele and distance
I liked the old one better, if you had to change the strategy and you didn't choose the technology well, it could be decisive

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

we need to vote on this option once and for all. i'm tired of all civs playing the same way.

I'd say we need to stay in the middle ground. AOE4 seems to go for too much asymmetry and it hurts gameplay. I think the Han dynasty civ is a step in the right direction: the heros are interesting, the CC upgrade is interesting, rice paddies interesting, and ministers interesting.

I would say we are also taking a step in the right direction here with pers including @borg-'s changes, and hopefully (if it gets accepted) my hyrcanian cav patch.

Edited June 13, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I'd say we need to stay in the middle ground. AOE4 seems to go for too much asymmetry and it hurts gameplay.

they did not keep the balance.

AoE 3 and AoM are assymetrical.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

2 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

they did not keep the balance.

AoE 3 and AoM are assymetrical.

yes I think staying on the middle ground is good: the basic CS units are very similar, but civs have additional unique buildings, units, upgrades, and bonuses. 

Hopefully, we can do this for a couple more civs later as well.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

Pers will be/ already are a cav civ. Does it make sense to add meat drop off capability to ice houses or would this just be op?

I think it might be a way to justify the early cost of ice houses while supporting a cav army that Persians usually require to not die in the first 10 mins.

[borg-]

Please check if it's working.

 

persian0.1.zip

Edited June 14, 2022 by borg-

[borg-]

With this file, just right click on your snv folder, then apply patch, choose that file and click in patch all items.

persian0.1.patch

Edited June 14, 2022 by borg-

[real_tabasco_sauce]

@borg- everything seems to work as expected! Nice work!

I like the icehouses, but what about a 30 meter build restriction. 5 of these is 10 food per second (with the upgrade) which is like 12 or 13 women on farms in p3. I think they shouldn't be built so close so that food income is easier to challenge.

It looks to me like what you have made so far would work well with my hyrcanian cav change.

Edited June 14, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[borg-]

12 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

@borg- everything seems to work as expected! Nice work!

I like the icehouses, but what about a 30 meter build restriction. 5 of these is 10 food per second (with the upgrade) which is like 12 or 13 women on farms in p3. I think they shouldn't be built so close so that food income is easier to challenge.

It looks to me like what you have made so far would work well with my hyrcanian cav change.

Tnx feedback!

My original idea is to have an aura in the icehouse that increases the amount of food from nearby animals and bushes, so it could be built in neutral @Stan`. But I don't know if auras can affect gaia. With the aura, we can set the minimum distance equal to the aura.

Edited June 14, 2022 by borg-