Differentiating Civilizations: Persian

[borg-]

EDIT.

As you all know, one of the biggest problems we are currently encountering in 0a.d is that all civilizations are very similar in gameplay. My goal in this topic is to discuss plans on how to make the Persian civilization more attractive to players and at the same time seek to differentiate from other civilizations. Why start with persia? because it is one of the least used civilizations. It is important to point out that the proposed changes must correspond with the current stage of development (no features not yet implemented), and I also ask that you do not deviate from the objective of the topic which is to focus on Persian civilization.

Well for starter, I'm going to list below some ideas of what I think would be interesting.

- Persian women have a bow to defend themselves rather than the conventional dagger.

- Archers are more accurate than other archers and advance in rank faster

- Decreases the attack of citizen spearmen considerably, but increases armor pierce.

- All Persian cavalry are available in the CC, except champions.

- Can train ax cavalry in phase 1.

- Remove conscription and current unique training technology, add a new technology. All units cost an amount of gold but can be trained much faster.

- Cavalry health technology moved to phase 1.

 

Verify possibilities:

- Immortals switch from spear to bow and arrow

- Market can train slaves.

 

Well, these are some of the ideas i have for persians, i would like your opinion.

Edited June 3, 2022 by borg-

[AIEND]

Regarding the characteristics of archers, I think this should be given to multiple countries as a faction characteristic, such as Persia, Kush, Magadha and later Han.

One question is how to avoid the similarity between Persia and Seleucus. Persia has many characteristic units, such as Scythe Chariot and cataphract, which are very distinctive compared to the Greek states in the Balkans, but these Seleucus also have them, Persia looks like It's a bit like the predecessor of Seleucid, if it weren't for the colonial setting, there are too many similarities between the two in terms of units, which even makes me feel that it is not as good as making Parthia.

Edited June 3, 2022 by AIEND

[real_tabasco_sauce]

53 minutes ago, borg- said:

Persian women have a bow to defend themselves rather than the conventional dagger.

+

 

54 minutes ago, borg- said:

Archers are more accurate than other archers and advance in rank faster

+

 

54 minutes ago, borg- said:

- Decreases the attack of citizen spearmen considerably, but increases their shield pierce.

could be interesting. I guess this could be combined with your archer suggestion as a civ bonus (+ archer accuracy/rank speed , spears less attack + armor). What to call it I have no idea.

56 minutes ago, borg- said:

- All Persian cavalry are available in the CC, except champions.

- All Persian cavalry, except champions, can be trained in phase 1.

I think both of these would be a little crazy to be fair. I think all CS cav in p1 is good (maybe not hyrcanian cav because of crush), but I think you should have to get a stable for the full menu so to speak.

59 minutes ago, borg- said:

- Remove conscription and current unique training technology, add a new technology where it can be turned on and off. When activated, all units cost an amount of gold but can be trained much faster.

This sounds awesome, although I am unsure if it should go in p2 or 3. It is certainly more interesting than the current conscription tech for pers.

At least my hyrcanian cav idea might be a little differentiation

[Lion.Kanzen]

39 minutes ago, AIEND said:

Magadha

Mauryans?

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@borg- these are all fantasic ideas imo. I am a bit confused about the garden thing tho. Would that be a new building?

[AIEND]

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

毛利人？

Indian

[Freagarach]

3 hours ago, borg- said:

a new technology where it can be turned on and off

Such technologies do not exist yet.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

13 minutes ago, Freagarach said:

Such technologies do not exist yet.

I think this could be a valuable capability to have to be honest. I could see many other buildings or even defensive structures where you could change the "mode" for different purposes.

[Freagarach]

1 hour ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I think this could be a valuable capability to have to be honest. I could see many other buildings or even defensive structures where you could change the "mode" for different purposes.

Correct, but:

5 hours ago, borg- said:

(no features not yet implemented)

and:

5 hours ago, borg- said:

I also ask that you do not deviate from the objective of the topic which is to focus on Persian civilization

;P

(So you can ask it in another thread and I might respond it is on my gigantic ToDo-list already. )

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 hours ago, AIEND said:

Indian

Yes, I said that.

[Lion.Kanzen]

We must go for asymmetry.

I want all cultures to represent weakness and strength, true diversity.(Not the one sold to you by the elitist from WEF).

[alre]

5 hours ago, borg- said:

- Archers are more accurate than other archers and advance in rank faster

just buff all archers.

5 hours ago, borg- said:

- Decreases the attack of citizen spearmen considerably, but increases their shield pierce.

very good. a differentiation between shield bearers and line spearmen is overdue.

also add hoplite mercenaries.

5 hours ago, borg- said:

- All Persian cavalry are available in the CC, except champions.

- All Persian cavalry, except champions, can be trained in phase 1.

doesn't a26 have two cav in p1 for persia? that I think is enough of a differentiation. leave something to p2.

5 hours ago, borg- said:

- Create new garden models. That can generate a small amount of food per second.

nice. use DE ice houses for that.

[alre]

6 hours ago, borg- said:

- Create new garden models. That can generate a small amount of food per second.

on second thought, this shouldn't change the way persian play too much. they already have 220 max pop, so they can have more people farming anyway.

[AIEND]

8 分钟前，berhudar 说：

治疗师的 250 食物太多了。 一般来说，我更喜欢花我的食物来获得更多的士兵，因为它有 5 个步兵的食物。 至少它应该是 200 食物，而英国治疗师应该花费 150 以使治疗师更有用。 治疗师的升级也相当昂贵。 第一次升级 400 食物 200 金属和 500 食物 250 金属，第二次升级 800 食物 400 金属 1k 食物 500 金属。 通常你没有超过10个治疗师，而且费用太贵了。 最好跳过这些升级，甚至最好不要训练治疗者并获得更多的士兵和铁匠升级，如果你想用现有的特殊热键治愈你的受伤单位将他们撤退到寺庙。

If the Physician's cost is high, they should not need to upgrade technology to have the most complete healing power, because the high cost should mean that it is a "complete" unit.
Conversely, if the unit itself is cheap, it should be more expensive to upgrade the technology, because at this time the technology is used to supplement the unit.
In short, either put the cost on the unit, or on the upgrade technology.

[Dakara]

Quote

- Persian women have a bow to defend themselves rather than the conventional dagger.

Nice idea ! 

Quote

- Archers are more accurate than other archers and advance in rank faster

Nice idea, Provided archers are not buffed in a later update. 

Quote

- Decreases the attack of citizen spearmen considerably, but increases their shield pierce.

It mean spearman will be better against shield unit ? I'm agree. 

Quote

- All Persian cavalry are available in the CC, except champions.

- All Persian cavalry, except champions, can be trained in phase 1.

I'm favorable 

Quote

- Create new garden models. That can generate a small amount of food per second

When buildind is built, it a passive income of food? Great idea but i ferar persians will be op combine with the current population bonus? Maybe delete the bonus population for persians?

Quote

- Remove conscription and current unique training technology, add a new technology where it can be turned on and off. When activated, all units cost an amount of gold but can be trained much faster.

I also agree to remove superfluous tech for the Persians knowing that they can play cavalry earlier with the previous changes. For the idea of gold for much faster unit i don't have opinion. Why not create a category of slave fighter in market? like dogs of britons is limited amount of unit like 40? cost only metal and train very fast, a little weak unit (less strong than citizen unit); We can imagine 4 units of slaves ; 1 unit with mass, 1 unit with little bow (attack fast and middle range like slingers), 1 spearman (with normal stat compare to sperman persians, better for kill ram) 1 scout skirmish cavalery no armor and medium attack .

 

Just for say,

Perses have already better ram, immortel unit, large choices of cavalery. Also persians have tech for builidng is more HP.

Maybe we have to change bonus team. 

Maybe we can add the tech disparo is instant when click 

[alre]

also it would be nice to have immortals switch spear and shield with bow and arrow.

[borg-]

12 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

@borg- estas são todas as idéias fantasiosas imo. Estou um pouco confuso sobre a coisa do jardim tho. Seria um prédio novo?

Yes, it would be a new building.

 

10 hours ago, Freagarach said:

Essas tecnologias ainda não existem.

True, I confused it with the upgrade of some building or unit that can be turned back.

[borg-]

Apparently everyone seems to agree with the changes:

- Persian women have a bow to defend themselves rather than the conventional dagger.

- Archers are more accurate than other archers and advance in rank faster

- Decreases the attack of citizen spearmen considerably, but increases armor pierce.

- All Persian cavalry are available in the CC, except champions.

I'm going to remove the gardens because it needs a new model and I think that might be a little off topic.

About all cavalry being trained in phase 1, i think we can just leave javelin cavalry and ax cavalry. With the changes proposed by @real_tabasco_sauce it can work very well.

As for the recruiting technology, apparently it was well received but it can't be turned off. Anyway, I think that with adequate values it can still be very interesting and effective during the game, as long as the player has enough gold accumulated or possible mines to collect, but if denied the gold the game can be lost. I think it adds interesting decision points.

I really like @Dakara idea of market training slaves. I'll look for historical basis for this.

I like this idea of @berhudar --> Cavalry health upgrade should be researchable in p1.

@alre idea about the immortals is something i did in my mod. Only problem is referring to the status of the units. Both archer and spearmen must have the same health, armor, attack etc.. with the exception of the bonus of spearman against cavalry. So finding good numbers for both is a little difficult.

Edited June 3, 2022 by borg-

[real_tabasco_sauce]

19 minutes ago, borg- said:

With the changes proposed by @real_tabasco_sauce

You mean this patch? https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4674

I made the crush change you suggested by the way.

Edited June 3, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@borg- would the axe cav be trainable in p1 just from the cc like the other non-champ units? The way they have been balanced under @real_tabasco_sauce's patch makes it not super problematic to have them in p1, because at best we would see a few of these units as raiders that would have to run from most military units in p1 when outnumbered. 

I like the unit that has come out of @real_tabasco_sauce's mod and I feel it is useful for more than just one thing despite having the obvious weakness of reduced pierce armor and hp limited to 160.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

3 hours ago, borg- said:

- Persian women have a bow to defend themselves rather than the conventional dagger.

Justification? Were Persian women good archers? Lol

 

3 hours ago, borg- said:

- Archers are more accurate than other archers and advance in rank faster

This is fine. Perhaps the "Archery Tradition" tech should unlock this (instead of what it currently does, but I forget what it currently does lol).

 

3 hours ago, borg- said:

- Decreases the attack of citizen spearmen considerably, but increases armor pierce.

Sounds good. 

 

3 hours ago, borg- said:

As for the recruiting technology, apparently it was well received but it can't be turned off.

This is actually currently possible, just not with a tech. Do it by upgrading the barracks back and forth. Barracks trains food+wood versions of the units, while Royal Barracks train food+metal versions of the units. You can upgrade these buildings back and forth at will (for a cost or something).

 

3 hours ago, borg- said:

I really like @Dakara idea of market training slaves. I'll look for historical basis for this.

There is none. While slavery wasn't completely removed from the empire, other civs were much more slave-centric. 

 

3 hours ago, borg- said:

'm going to remove the gardens because it needs a new model and I think that might be a little off topic.

Use the Ice Houses from DE.

[chrstgtr]

Some of these changes won’t be noticeable to the average player. And if this exercise is done for all civs then the traditional spear/archer/sword/skirm/etc. stats will become meaningless because too many civs will have one off special stat adjustments. I would want something that is easier to understand so each unit type is same across civs. Different unit types will be different even if they are similar (for example, pikes and spears are pretty similar to each other but we all understand how they are different). Making a system where a Persian spear is different from a Athens spear, which is different from a Brit spear, which is different from a Roman spear, will very quickly create a complicated system that can’t be easily understood. 
 

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

5 hours ago, borg- said:

- Archers are more accurate than other archers and advance in rank faster

This is fine. Perhaps the "Archery Tradition" tech should unlock this (instead of what it currently does, but I forget what it currently does lol

Agree. Just make a tech. This would essentially be like the hoplite tradition for Sparta/Athens but with a focus on promotion/performance instead of promotion/train time. I like that slight twist. 
 

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

5 hours ago, borg- said:

- Decreases the attack of citizen spearmen considerably, but increases armor pierce.

Sounds good

Do it through a tech or make it a different unit type. I would lean towards a tech so that the player has the choice on what to do.
 

Also, what you describe is pretty similar to how pikes will function in the next alpha. The main difference will be that Persian spears will be faster. Not sure that makes sense historically because this will probably mean that Persia gets the best of pikes (armor) and spears (speed) which will give them one of the better inf melee units. That might be good, but it seems misplaced with Persia being the civ to get that

5 hours ago, borg- said:

Persian women have a bow to defend themselves rather than the conventional dagger.

I don’t care about the woman change. Do that if you think that’ll be cool. 

5 hours ago, borg- said:

All Persian cavalry are available in the CC, except champions

I’m a little concerned about this.

This will lead to more “cameling” rushes with the archer cav  

Can’t axe cav destroy CCs quickly (currently or as proposed)? That could be very difficult to counter in p1 which will lead to a lot of early GGs

maybe it best to just keep the same roster from the stables (jav and spear)

5 hours ago, borg- said:

this idea of @berhudar --> Cavalry health upgrade should be researchable in p1.

Yes

[LetswaveaBook]

5 hours ago, borg- said:

I'm going to remove

I see that you removed some of your ideas that you posted. I would have preferred that you didn't delete them those ideas from your post. Not neccesary because they are good, but rather to encourage people to think about all possibilities and inspire creativity.

The more ideas we toss in the tread, the more combinations of applicable patches we could make. So I would like to toss in some ideas:

1) The Persians have a truly unique technology and it is named after them. Sadly, this technology does little to define their identity. My suggestion would be to give the Persian architecture tech the additional bonus of providing buildings with +20% territory control. Achaemenid Persia was a big state, so allowing them to gain more territory seems fair.

2) The Achaemenid empire had lots of inhabitants. An population bonus wouldn't be bad, even though they allready have one. An interesting bonus could be that Persians start with +10 population space, which allows some interesting openings for rushes. Since it is a one time bonus, its late game effects would tend to slowly fade away. This would make Persia a good faction for an early rush, but it wouldn't change it (infantry) weaknesses in the late game (for 1v1s). I think this could add to the identity of the faction. Assuming that advancements in phases means advancement through the ages, this bonus suits Achaemenid history: powerful in classical times but overpowered in the Hellenistic age.

Also I posted some ideas on Persians a while ago that I wanted to repeat in case anyone is interested:

On 14/02/2022 at 8:58 PM, LetswaveaBook said:

Persian cavalry should now carry 40 resources. Their skirmishers cost -20 wood and have -20% attack. Having access to the skirmisher is an now a bigger advantage for the boom, encouraging Persians to reach p2 earlier. It also creates a quantity of quality approach for Persian infantry.

I also discussed created a differential a while back which can be found in this post:

 

[LetswaveaBook]

12 hours ago, berhudar said:

Cavalry health upgrade should be researchable in p1.

Quote

- All Persian cavalry are available in the CC, except champions.

- All Persian cavalry, except champions, can be trained in phase 1.

 

I wouldn't be a fan of moving all good stuff from p2 to p1. I would like it if p2 offered useful and unique advantages instead of being the roadblock on your way to p3 that it currently seems to be.

[borg-]

5 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

@borg- would the axe cav be trainable in p1 just from the cc like the other non-champ units? The way they have been balanced under @real_tabasco_sauce's patch makes it not super problematic to have them in p1, because at best we would see a few of these units as raiders that would have to run from most military units in p1 when outnumbered. 

I like the unit that has come out of @real_tabasco_sauce's mod and I feel it is useful for more than just one thing despite having the obvious weakness of reduced pierce armor and hp limited to 160.

My intention is to make it become a more useful and special unit precisely because it is in phase 1. I wouldn't change much about this unit, maybe it would give a capture bonus or something. She would be a much more notable unit in phase 1.