Teamwork Team Bonus Concept

[Philip the Swaggerless]

I tried the Han Chinese on the SVN version and was impressed by the implementation of ministers.  It made the game feel a little immersive.  It makes me think that if we are more creative with our team bonuses we can have a more unique and fun game.

Many of the team bonuses are just innate buffs or bonuses added to your civilization because another player happens to be a certain civilization.  If your teammate is Ptolemies, you get an automatic food trickle.  If your teammate is Iberians, your skirmishers are automatically cheaper, and so forth.  You can actually choose to play very similarly to a 1 v 1 game and still get a special bonus.

What I am envisioning is a Team Bonus concept where to benefit from the Team Bonus, you actually have to do some teamwork.  The Carth bonus already requires teamwork.  You have to actually create and send traders to benefit.  The rest of the bonuses do not require any teamwork to benefit from.

If teamwork is required to achieve a worthwhile benefit this will add character to the civilizations, and even mini-objectives to achieve advantages.  Below I've put a few ideas, exact values for the bonuses can be debated later.

Athenians

Current Bonus: Delian League.  Warships -25% Construction Time

New Bonus Idea:  Greek Philosophy.

Athenians can build a "Greek Academy" that will give themselves and allies -50% research time for Civic technologies.  Further, once the Academy is standing:

• The Athenian player themselves can train 1 of 5 Philosophers from the academy.  Philosophers give a benefit to the player for the duration of their life and only one can exist at a time:
  • Platonic - Non-military technologies -5% cost.  Plato may be most known for his theory of Universals.
  • Aristotelian -  All technologies -20% Research Time.  Aristotle, one of the most influential philosophers, gave an essential contribution to the development of logic, especially syllogism.
  • Stoic - Non-mercenary humans immune to debuffs and negative status effects.  Stoics sought independence from their needs. (I have not worked out how to make them immune to debuffs.  I think functionality to add a class to units already having a given class would be needed.)
  • Epicurean - All humans +10% food cost, +1.0 idle health regeneration rate.  The life worth being lived is spent seeking pleasure.
  • Skeptic - Non-military technologies -15% cost, but +25% research time.  There is nothing that cannot be doubted, including the fact that everything can be doubted.
• The Teammates of the Athenian player can create a Student of Philosophy.  The Student of Philosophy can can research 1 of the above 5 bonuses, and it will be in effect for the duration of their life.  Once a bonus has been researched, no further Students of Philosophy can be created.  The cost to research is expensive, 500 food  & 500 wood and takes 200 seconds, but if the Student of Philosophy stands next to the Greek Academy the cost is reduced by 90%. (50 food, 50 wood, 20 seconds)

Romans

Current Bonus: "Conscription." Citizen Infantry -10% faster.  You could change it by having only the Romans themselves keep a 10% train speed bonus, but allow them to build special infantry production buildings in allied territory which train units an additional 10% faster.  Maybe there would need to be a limit on the amount of buildings placed in allied territory.

This allows this team to have fast reinforcements from the Roman player for staging attacks or defending from them.

Gauls

Current Bonus: "Products from Gaul." Forges -15% research cost and research time.  This could become a teamwork bonus if you give the Gauls a special forge factory/export building besides their forge.  Once they have researched a technology for themselves in their forge, they can unlock that technology in the factory/export building for their allies instantly at -50% cost.  The GUI for that building could look like the current one with it's images, but with extra rows designating each teammate:

ALLY 1    [MELEE ATK]   [RANGE ATK]    [HACK DEF]    [PIERCE DEF] 

ALLY 2   [MELEE ATK]   [RANGE ATK]    [HACK DEF]    [PIERCE DEF]  

ALLY 3   [MELEE ATK]   [RANGE ATK]    [HACK DEF]    [PIERCE DEF]  

etc...

Since Gauls do not have archer accuracy and crossbows upgrades, nor the Wootz/Toledo Steel upgrade, they cannot unlock those for others.

2 Alternate Implementations (Thanks to @LetswaveaBook)

The Gaul's current forge could produce a delivery unit that looks like a large wagon.  If that delivery unit can successfully garrison in an allied blacksmith it allows the allied player to research blacksmith techs at a lower cost, similar to the Mauryan healer.  But it would be a deeper discount than the Mauryan hero gives since it only applies to the blacksmith.

Another idea would be that Gauls can produce a cart and unpack it in allied territory and donate a "special" forge with lower upgrade costs to their allies. The cart and the special forge would be capturable by your opponents.

Either way, if the Gaul team is able to take advantage of it, they would get upgrades at a great overall savings for the team.  However, if the Gaul team do not individually get forge upgrades because they are waiting on the Gaul player to receive them, the enemy team could gain an advantage by destroying the Gaul export building/delivery unit.

Carthaginians

Current bonus: "Trademasters" +10% International Trade Bonus.  I would take it further make it so you only get the bonus when trading with the Carth player, but increase the bonus to 20% due to this limitation.

Persians

Current Bonus: "The Royal Road" 15% Land Traders bonus.  I have 2 ideas for the Persians.  Similar to Carth above, you could make it +25% bonus when Land trading with a Persian player only.

My other idea needs some background explanation.  First of all and generally speaking, it is my opinion that there should be a fee for donating resources to other players, 10% maybe.  So if you spend 100 food to donate to an ally, they only receive 90, and the other 10 is lost.  If that were to be implemented, a bonus for the Persian player could be that when an ally makes a contribution, the 10% fee goes directly to the Persian player's stockpile.  If there is more than 1 Persian on a team it is divided equally between the Persian teammates so that it can not generate extra resources.

(By the way, I see Han Chinese are being given a 20% international trade bonus, which is higher than the both the Carth and Persian current team bonuses.  If it were implemented in this teamwork scheme at a higher value than Persia and Carth, it would justify an additional bonus for Persia like the one I've described above, and a different one for Carth.)

Ptolemies

Current Bonus:  "Breadbasket of the Mediterranean."  +1.0 Food trickle rate.   

NEW IDEA:  Instead of this, a bonus using teamwork would be to let Ptolemies build a P1 building (granary?) that generates donate-only food. The donate-only food cannot be used by the Ptolemies player, it can only be donated to others.  The donate-only food generation could be calculated in real time as a percentage of the actual amount of food the Ptolemies player obtains from farms.  The Ptolemies player receives into his stockpile the full amount of food he farms, and besides that donate-only food amounting to, for example 10% of what he farms is available to donate to allies.

I like this granary building idea better because then Ptolemies can be nerfed by losing food trickle.  Also, the granary can be a strategic building for enemy players to destroy. 

Spoiler

OLD IDEA: If the above mentioned "fee for donating resources" mentioned above under Persians, were to be implemented, I would change this to give Ptolemies an powerful innate farming bonus of 25% and make it so they have no fee for donating food. 

A team can take advantage of this by having their Ptolemy player make more extra farms and sling teammates food.

 

Mauryans

Current Bonus: Ashoka's Religious Support.  Temples -50% resource cost and building time, temple technologies -50% resource cost and research time.

NEW IDEA: "Arthashastra."  Free Cartography.  In the writing "Arthashastra," much direction is given on using informants extensively within the kingdom and on using spies among neighboring kingdoms. 

 

Iberians

Current Bonus: Saripeko - Citizen Javelineers -10% resource cost.

NEW IDEA:  Allied players can build an Iberian embassy to make mercenaries at a 10% discount.  (Sword cav will not be discounted and may have an upcharge until balanced better.)  The basis for the original bonus is the fact that people of Iberia were known for fighting for others as mercenaries.  Allies being able to make Iberian mercenaries reflects this better, and requires more of a player action to benefit from than the generic discount.

Seleucids

Current Bonus: Syrian Tetrapolis. Allies can make CC for -20% resource cost. 

New Bonus: Marriage Alliance.  This is a reference to the historical event where a Helena, the daughter of Seleucid Nikator, was married to Chandragupta Maurya.  The Seleucids gave the Mauryas territory and the Mauryas gave the Seleucids war elephants.

The Seleucid player can produce a "Princess" unit from any hero.  The Princess can only be made once.

• The Princess will have a Royalty aura, making all ally heroes have -50% cost and train time.
• The Princess can research one marriage Betrothal tech from among the Allied Civs. 
  • Once researched, all allies gain 7% territory influence, and the Seleucid player loses 7% territory influence. 
  • The Princess will now be able to gather a "dowry token," from the hero producing structure of the civ she is betrothed to.  (Exception: Ptolemies - must gather from Fortress, not Civic Center.) Once gathered she will be able to train either 12 Infantry Champs of a single type, 8 Cavalry Champs of a single type,  or 5 elephants (6 for Kushites,) instantly for free.  The producible champions are champions of the allied civ, so for example if the allied civ has no elephants she can't make elephants.

 

 

These are the ideas I have so far.  Do you have any good ones?

 

 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Philip the Swaggerless
Updated Ptolemies and Gauls sections. Added Athenian section. Added Mauryan and Iberian sections. Added Seleucid section 28Apr.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@Philip the Swaggerless This sounds interesting, but I think I feel like it might get a little frustrating if we dont know what to expect from our strategies (will team do this or nah?)

[Freagarach]

4 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

@Philip the Swaggerless This sounds interesting, but I think I feel like it might get a little frustrating if we dont know what to expect from our strategies (will team do this or nah?)

Communication is the key to success.

[Lion.Kanzen]

21 minutes ago, Freagarach said:

Communication is the key to success.

all bonuses are correct.Why not let the player choose them? (in-game)

[faction02]

I have some doubts about making resources transfers costly.

If a player, has more economic upgrades but he could still invest in his economy (because he has more upgrades to research or he is not max pop), then, since growth is an exponential process,  sending resources is often costly already (in terms of slowing down your own growth). I am not sure that making resources transfer more costly will improve tg since this form of cooperation would then be discouraged.

9 hours ago, Philip the Swaggerless said:

Ptolemies

Current Bonus:  "Breadbasket of the Mediterranean."  +1.0 Food trickle rate.  If the above mentioned "fee for donating resources" were to be implemented, I would change this to give Ptolemies an powerful innate farming bonus of 25% and make it so they have no fee for donating food. 

A team can take advantage of this by having their Ptolemy player make more extra farms and sling teammates food.

Just to make sure I understand every parts of your reasoning, wouldn't this risk to make ptolemies overly strong in 1vs1? Also the ptolemies players would probably slow down his growth by slinging food to other players. Wouldn't he be better off by booming extremely fast or spamming camels thanks to that bonus to steamroll civilization that do not have that kind of economic bonus? No transfer fee is not a real incentive to send resources to other players.

But rethinking team bonus concept is a good idea.  

Edited March 4, 2022 by faction02

[LetswaveaBook]

18 hours ago, Philip the Swaggerless said:

What I am envisioning is a Team Bonus concept where to benefit from the Team Bonus, you actually have to do some teamwork. 

I would rephrase it as "What I am envisioning is a Team Bonus concept where to benefit from the Team Bonus, you actually have to do some change in strategy. "

18 hours ago, Philip the Swaggerless said:

My other idea needs some background explanation.  First of all and generally speaking, it is my opinion that there should be a fee for donating resources to other players, 10% maybe.  So if you spend 100 food to donate to an ally, they only receive 90, and the other 10 is lost. 

I would be in favor of this change, but that is something to discuss in  https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/66538-tribute-fees-and-related-ptol-team-bonus-nerf-and-persian-civ-buff/

19 hours ago, Philip the Swaggerless said:

An alternate implementation would be that the Gaul's current forge could produce a delivery unit that looks like a large wagon

I don't know if the engine easily allows for your suggestion. What would be very possible is to allow the gallic player to create a wagon unit at the forge which can garrison in forges and function a bit like the Mauryan healer hero, with adjusted stats. In delenda est, there is a possibilty to let carts unpack into buidings. Maybe another idea would be that gauls can produce a cart and unpack it in allied territory and donate a "special" forge with lower upgrade costs to their allies. The cart and the special forge would be capturable by your opponents.

19 hours ago, Philip the Swaggerless said:

Current Bonus: "Conscription." Citizen Infantry -10% faster.  You could change it by having only the Romans themselves keep a 10% train speed bonus, but allow them to build special infantry production buildings in allied territory which train units an additional 10% faster.  Maybe there would need to be a limit on the amount of buildings placed in allied territory.

If my history is correct, the Romans stationed some citizens in allied towns. I don't know if it is workable, but a Roman team bonus could allow team members to put a garrison buiding(with a limit of 1) in allied towns if the owner of the building is "in some sense" the dominant player. So if an ally has an garrison building in your territory, he is the dominant player and the "weaker player" can't build a garrison building in territory of the dominant player. I would also be in favour of it being an unfair relations, where the weaker player needs to accepts the domminance for protection but in return the "weaker" player get a disavantage. Like having his own military troops train slower (+20% training time might seem fine), less grain gathering rate(The garrison eats the food) or a lower population limit (the lost population capacity could be added to that of the "dominant" player). This would be a slightly abusive relationship that could benefit the team in some situations and give some extra strategical options as a team. But that concept would need more thought.

 

When it comes to suggested team bonusses, I think we should also think if it wouldn't be just more fitting as a civ bonus than a team bonus.

[Philip the Swaggerless]

21 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

@Philip the Swaggerless This sounds interesting, but I think I feel like it might get a little frustrating if we dont know what to expect from our strategies (will team do this or nah?)

This will be a challenge, especially for less experienced players and those who do not understand English or the common language well.  But I think ultimately it would be for the best. 

Even as it is now, at least in the higher level games there is typically a discussion of strategy in in game chat involving location of enemies,  "you boom," "I'll rush," "I'll spam merc cav and destroy all!, etc...

14 hours ago, faction02 said:

I have some doubts about making resources transfers costly.

If a player, has more economic upgrades but he could still invest in his economy (because he has more upgrades to research or he is not max pop), then, since growth is an exponential process,  sending resources is often costly already (in terms of slowing down your own growth). I am not sure that making resources transfer more costly will improve tg since this form of cooperation would then be discouraged.

Just to make sure I understand every parts of your reasoning, wouldn't this risk to make ptolemies overly strong in 1vs1? Also the ptolemies players would probably slow down his growth by slinging food to other players. Wouldn't he be better off by booming extremely fast or spamming camels thanks to that bonus to steamroll civilization that do not have that kind of economic bonus? No transfer fee is not a real incentive to send resources to other players.

But rethinking team bonus concept is a good idea.  

Per Let'swaveabook's point,  I will respond about tribute fees in the other topic page. https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/66538-tribute-fees-and-related-ptol-team-bonus-nerf-and-persian-civ-buff/

About Ptol becoming stronger in 1 v 1's I definitely want to avoid that because I think they are already OP.  The farming bonus instead of the food trickle would help their mid and late game,  but make them less strong against early rushes.  I think that might be okay, but there are other methods to have their team bonus require team work.  But for comparison, with all farm upgrades they would have a total 75% in farm rate bonuses. This is the same as what the Han Chinese will have, and a little higher than the Gauls.

An alternate method to have their bonus use teamwork would be to have a P1 building (granary?) that generates donate-only food over time. The donate-only food cannot be used by the Ptolemy player, it can only be donated to others.  If the building is captured while some of the donate-only food has still not been donated, the capturer gets it into his stockpile!  It could be:

100 donate-only food per minute in P1

200 donate-only food per minute in P2

300 donate-only food per minute in P3

Or, there can be researchable upgrades within the granary to boost the donate-only generation rate. 

Or, the donate-only food generation can be calculated in real time as a percentage of the actual amount of food the Ptol player obtains from farms.  I like this option the best because it requires that the Ptol player actually have the farms that are supposed to be making the food.

I like this granary building idea better because then Ptolemies can be nerfed by losing food trickle (or the proposed innate farm rate buff) bonus.  Also, the granary may be a strategic building for enemy players to destroy. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by Philip the Swaggerless
Changed 2nd to last paragraph

[Philip the Swaggerless]

5 hours ago, LetswaveaBook said:

I don't know if the engine easily allows for your suggestion. What would be very possible is to allow the gallic player to create a wagon unit at the forge which can garrison in forges and function a bit like the Mauryan healer hero, with adjusted stats. In delenda est, there is a possibilty to let carts unpack into buidings. Maybe another idea would be that gauls can produce a cart and unpack it in allied territory and donate a "special" forge with lower upgrade costs to their allies. The cart and the special forge would be capturable by your opponents.

I like those suggestions.  My initial suggestion about teammates getting all the upgrades if it makes it to the CC was too "all-or-nothing."  

[Philip the Swaggerless]

*added Athenians to original post*

[thephilosopher]

On 03/03/2022 at 4:29 PM, Philip the Swaggerless said:

Skeptic - Non-military technologies -15% cost, but +25% research time.  There is nothing that cannot be doubted, including the fact that everything can be doubted.

Also,

Sophist - +100% research time, -90% pierce resistance.

Jokes aside, I really like your idea for the Athenian bonus.

Edited March 27, 2022 by thephilosopher

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I've entertained the idea of an "Emissary" or "Ambassador" unit that boosts production of allies-only and also gives his vision to allies (if Cartography is not researched). Basically the role of the Han Minister, but you use it to boost your allies instead of yourself.

Then also a "Spy" [aka "Sikarios"] unit where to you it looks like a spy wearing a sketchy hood and cape, while to the enemy it looks like a random one of their soldiers. The only way for the enemy to know it's not one of theirs is for them to select your spy and try to order it around.

[Philip the Swaggerless]

 

13 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I've entertained the idea of an "Emissary" or "Ambassador" unit that boosts production of allies-only and also gives his vision to allies (if Cartography is not researched). Basically the role of the Han Minister, but you use it to boost your allies instead of yourself.

I like the idea.  For the Emissary, would he give his entire civ's vision to his allies, or only the emissary's line of sight?  I had thought about making a civ's initial scout have shared vision, although I haven't looked into how to technically implement it.  I feel like a benefit like that should start early if it is to be helpful.

13 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Then also a "Spy" [aka "Sikarios"] unit where to you it looks like a spy wearing a sketchy hood and cape, while to the enemy it looks like a random one of their soldiers. The only way for the enemy to know it's not one of theirs is for them to select your spy and try to order it around.

That is another really cool idea.  Beyond my knowledge to implement.  

What civs do you think these ideas would be good for?

On 04/03/2022 at 12:07 PM, LetswaveaBook said:

In delenda est, there is a possibilty to let carts unpack into buidings. Maybe another idea would be that gauls can produce a cart and unpack it in allied territory and donate a "special" forge with lower upgrade costs to their allies. The cart and the special forge would be capturable by your opponents.

@wowgetoffyourcellphone  I took a look at Delenda Est and if this refers to the Scythians it looks like you accomplish this by having the carts "upgrade", and "unpack."  But is there a way to donate a structure/unit to an allies?  I was actually considering giving Kushites the ability to make gift elephants at a cheaper price, which cannot fight, but then "upgrade" into an full fledged war elephant, immediately changing ownership to the ally in whose territory they upgrade at. 

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Philip the Swaggerless said:

@wowgetoffyourcellphone  I took a look at Delenda Est and if this refers to the Scythians it looks like you accomplish this by having the carts "upgrade", and "unpack."  But is there a way to donate a structure/unit to an allies?  I was actually considering giving Kushites the ability to make gift elephants at a cheaper price, which cannot fight, but then "upgrade" into an full fledged war elephant, immediately changing ownership to the ally in whose territory they upgrade at. 

 

Not sure. Perhaps play around with TerritoryDecay. You can make a cart, then send it over to your ally's territory. You can then unpack it to whatever you want, but it has a fast territory decay, so it'll switch to that player? No idea if this would work.

 

But yes, the Scythians in Delenda Est use the 'Upgrade' feature rather than the 'Packing' feature. Seemed easier for me to conceptualize, plus tooltips, etc.

1 hour ago, Philip the Swaggerless said:

What civs do you think these ideas would be good for?

Was thinking of making the Spy a standard unit, while the Emissary could be a civ-specific one. Not sure. Perhaps trained from the Athenian Council Chamber.

[Stan`]

Since A25, territory root can be changed via tech.

[Freagarach]

You can't decay in allied territory.

[chrstgtr]

2 hours ago, Freagarach said:

You can't decay in allied territory.

Related, it might be nice if there was a civ bonus that let players build their players build in allied territory.

This could be in the form where one civ can build in any allied territory or where one civ lets any ally build in their own territory. 

This could make for some interesting strategies where a team can push really hard on the enemy because of decreased spam walk distance. 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

2 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

Related, it might be nice if there was a civ bonus that let players build their players build in allied territory.

This could be in the form where one civ can build in any allied territory or where one civ lets any ally build in their own territory. 

This could make for some interesting strategies where a team can push really hard on the enemy because of decreased spam walk distance. 

I believe you can currently build defense towers in allied territory. It steals territory from your ally though, which is a bit sus.

It would be nice if we had more diplomacy options where players can turn different things off and on. So, you could be allies, but you don't have the "Allow Allies to Construct in Your Territory" feature flipped to 'on' because you don't trust them or for a number of reasons. If you want to cooperatively choke off a position you could flip that option 'on' in the Diplo screen and then your ally can help tower up an area with you.

Edited March 28, 2022 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[chrstgtr]

21 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I believe you can currently build defense towers in allied territory. It steals territory from your ally though, which is a bit sus.

 

 

As in stone towers? I don't think so. 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

10 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

 

As in stone towers? I don't think so. 

Got my wires crossed. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

On 04/03/2022 at 11:07 AM, LetswaveaBook said:

I would also be in favour of it being an unfair relations, where the weaker player needs to accepts the domminance for protection but in return the "weaker" player get a disavantage. Like having his own military troops train slower (+20% training time might seem fine), less grain gathering rate(The garrison eats the food) or a lower population limit (the lost population capacity could be added to that of the "dominant" player). This would be a slightly abusive relationship that could benefit the team in some situations and give some extra strategical options as a team. But that concept would need more thought.

I envision this being either unused or abused to troll your teammate. firstly, the only protection a building can give is building arrows, so I have a hard time imagining how effective the protection the garrison provides would be, especially considering how huge the costs you listed are.

perhaps it could be modified to the form of an anti-rush building available in p1, maybe with a build limit of 1. The cost of the building would be on the builder, but not exorbitant. (maybe 150w 50s) The cost to the teammate would be that it takes 3 pop space or something.

[Philip the Swaggerless]

On 26/03/2022 at 11:34 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I've entertained the idea of an "Emissary" or "Ambassador" unit that boosts production of allies-only and also gives his vision to allies (if Cartography is not researched). Basically the role of the Han Minister, but you use it to boost your allies instead of yourself.

Then also a "Spy" [aka "Sikarios"] unit where to you it looks like a spy wearing a sketchy hood and cape, while to the enemy it looks like a random one of their soldiers. The only way for the enemy to know it's not one of theirs is for them to select your spy and try to order it around.

While looking up research about the civs of 0AD I learned that the Mauryas were huge on spies and informants.  Chanakya outlined many uses of them Arthasastra.  Here is a quote that would support them having soldier spies.

CHAPTER III. THE WORK OF SPIES IN A SIEGE. THE conqueror may dismiss a confidential chief of a corporation. The chief may go over to the enemy as a friend and offer to supply him with recruits and other help collected from the conqueror's territory or followed by a band of spies, the chief may please the enemy by destroying a disloyal village or a regiment or an ally of the conqueror and by sending as a present the elephants, horses, and disaffected persons of the conqueror's army or of the latter's ally; or a confidential chief officer of the conqueror may solicit help from a portion of the territory (of the enemy), or from a corporation of people (sreni) or from wild tribes; and when he has gained their confidence, he may send them down to the conqueror to be routed down on the occasion of a farcical attempt to capture elephants or wild tribes.

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

9 minutes ago, Philip the Swaggerless said:

While looking up research about the civs of 0AD I learned that the Mauryas were huge on spies and informants.  Chanakya outlined many uses of them Arthasastra.  Here is a quote that would support them having soldier spies.

CHAPTER III. THE WORK OF SPIES IN A SIEGE. THE conqueror may dismiss a confidential chief of a corporation. The chief may go over to the enemy as a friend and offer to supply him with recruits and other help collected from the conqueror's territory or followed by a band of spies, the chief may please the enemy by destroying a disloyal village or a regiment or an ally of the conqueror and by sending as a present the elephants, horses, and disaffected persons of the conqueror's army or of the latter's ally; or a confidential chief officer of the conqueror may solicit help from a portion of the territory (of the enemy), or from a corporation of people (sreni) or from wild tribes; and when he has gained their confidence, he may send them down to the conqueror to be routed down on the occasion of a farcical attempt to capture elephants or wild tribes.

 

It would also add a bit of intrigue if Spies worked the same against allies as well. Meaning, they don't see them as your Spy either, but as one of their own.

It could be a Hero Class unit, meaning you can only have 1 active at any time and you'd see its portrait up at the top with heroes and catafalques.

[Philip the Swaggerless]

10 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

It would also add a bit of intrigue if Spies worked the same against allies as well. Meaning, they don't see them as your Spy either, but as one of their own.

Won't everybody research cartography anyways?  It would be great if it worked on neutral players in diplomacy games.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

50 minutes ago, Philip the Swaggerless said:

Won't everybody research cartography anyways?  It would be great if it worked on neutral players in diplomacy games.

Yeah, they'd research Cartography at some point, but the point would be that you could position your Spy into your ally's base before turning on them.  Things like that. So, if you catch an ally's Spy in your base, you might get a little suspicious. Drama.  

[Nullus]

On 27/03/2022 at 6:34 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Then also a "Spy" [aka "Sikarios"] unit where to you it looks like a spy wearing a sketchy hood and cape, while to the enemy it looks like a random one of their soldiers. The only way for the enemy to know it's not one of theirs is for them to select your spy and try to order it around.

One idea I had was that you could select other players' units and bribe them to become your spy for a certain amount of time. This would be subject to increasing costs and lower likelihood of success for more powerful military units. All non-mechanical units could be bribed. After bribing the unit, the original owner and the bribing player would have shared control of it, although this wouldn't be visible to the original owner. Both players could give orders to the unit, but the unit couldn't attack either player. If a spy was garrisoned in a building, the production and research queue is visible. Unfortunately, shared control isn't implemented, but if it is, this could be a good use for it.