Commit Feldmap to A26

[Yekaterina]

Many players want Feldmap mod to be a vanilla feature of 0AD A26. This mod adds a new map called Mainland Balanced, which has perfectly balanced resource distribution among players. Now I have a problem commiting to this to svn as a patch:

I copied the files into the correct folders, but svn is not detecting it. What went wrong?

in powershell:

No difference detected!

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

@Silier

[Feldfeld]

Hello, thank you for your interest, if you want to advocate for inclusion of balanced resources in random maps I have already made a patch here: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4232

This patch adds code for having the possibility of having balanced resources on many existing maps. It does some refactoring and as such that makes it also harder to review.
Now there also is the possibility of adding just Mainland Balanced, which is a copy of Mainland that was edited in a quick and dirty way. Depending on dev team preference this could be added instead if they don't mind the code duplication that comes with it.

[Player of 0AD]

48 minutes ago, Feldfeld said:

Hello, thank you for your interest, if you want to advocate for inclusion of balanced resources in random maps I have already made a patch here: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4232

This patch adds code for having the possibility of having balanced resources on many existing maps. It does some refactoring and as such that makes it also harder to review.
Now there also is the possibility of adding just Mainland Balanced, which is a copy of Mainland that was edited in a quick and dirty way. Depending on dev team preference this could be added instead if they don't mind the code duplication that comes with it.

By the way, if I'm not mistaken apple trees don't seem to count as starting food. It can happen that some player has additional apple trees while the other one doesn't have that extra food (Temperate biome). They don't get compensated with hunt or other berries neither.

[Feldfeld]

6 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said:

By the way, if I'm not mistaken apple trees don't seem to count as starting food. It can happen that some player has additional apple trees while the other one doesn't have that extra food (Temperate biome). They don't get compensated with hunt or other berries neither.

Yeah indeed, I ignored them by simplicity as they rarely give a significant advantage anyway. If I worked longer on balanced maps I would work on wood balance first, as some generations can get very imbalanced.

[maroder]

8 hours ago, Feldfeld said:

Now there also is the possibility of adding just Mainland Balanced, which is a copy of Mainland that was edited in a quick and dirty way. Depending on dev team preference this could be added instead if they don't mind the code duplication that comes with it.

My opinion: I am against the duplication, but if everybody favors the balanced version -> why not just replace it?

Include the function to generate the balanced resources in the script instead of making it a library function and then replacing it with D4232 in the long run.

[Lion.Kanzen]

26 minutes ago, maroder said:

My opinion: I am against the duplication, but if everybody favors the balanced version -> why not just replace it?

Include the function to generate the balanced resources in the script instead of making it a library function and then replacing it with D4232 in the long run.

If the differences are small, yes.

[maroder]

ping @chrstgtr since they also had opinions on this iirc.

Would you be ok with just replacing mainland with balanced mainland?

[chrstgtr]

Just now, maroder said:

Would you be ok with just replacing mainland with balanced mainland?

I would prefer not. Having everything balanced for every player makes things boring imo because it makes everything more predictable. I would rather have balanced teams, which currently does not exist. 

 

It's also worth noting that although many players have balanced maps, balanced mainland is almost never played in TGs. 

[Feldfeld]

12 minutes ago, maroder said:

ping @chrstgtr since they also had opinions on this iirc.

Would you be ok with just replacing mainland with balanced mainland?

 

8 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

I would prefer not. Having everything balanced for every player makes things boring imo because it makes everything more predictable. I would rather have balanced teams, which currently does not exist. 

 

It's also worth noting that although many players have balanced maps, balanced mainland is almost never played in TGs. 

I could look into modifying balanced mainland to only place balanced resources when there are 2 players, and let the old generation otherwise

[chrstgtr]

1 minute ago, Feldfeld said:

I could look into modifying balanced mainland to only place balanced resources when there are 2 players, and let the old generation otherwise

I would like that. I think everyone would like if the balancing was done by teams, which would make TGs and 1v1s "fair"

[Feldfeld]

3 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

I would like that. I think everyone would like if the balancing was done by teams, which would make TGs and 1v1s "fair"

Yes, that is what I did in the patch for balanced resources, but that one is more complex and harder to review so not in the table for near future.

[chrstgtr]

4 minutes ago, Feldfeld said:

Yes, that is what I did in the patch for balanced resources, but that one is more complex and harder to review so not in the table for near future.

Cool. Good to knowthere is progress

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

I wonder if it is possible to change the resource generation on mainland not to balance it perfectly but to prevent players from bottoming out on lottery (no extra hunt or berries). 

The benefit of 3 berries versus 2 is much smaller than the benefit of 2 berries versus 1. I was wondering if there would be some way to add a food resource during generation to players that don't have either extra hunt or berries.

I have observed that no one complains about enemies having extra food res unless they are at rock-bottom.

[maroder]

52 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I was wondering if there would be some way to add a food resource during generation to players that don't have either extra hunt or berries.

Sure, you can just increase the number of starting berries and chicken and push the random spawns further away. Or randomly spawn more or less resources close to the CC. The question is if this is perceived as balanced or what option the multiplayer would prefer.

[Feldfeld]

4 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I wonder if it is possible to change the resource generation on mainland not to balance it perfectly but to prevent players from bottoming out on lottery (no extra hunt or berries). 

The benefit of 3 berries versus 2 is much smaller than the benefit of 2 berries versus 1. I was wondering if there would be some way to add a food resource during generation to players that don't have either extra hunt or berries.

I have observed that no one complains about enemies having extra food res unless they are at rock-bottom.

Doing exactly like you mention (only add food if the current resource generation didn't give any) is pretty much not possible.
Doing another solution consisting of always giving the food anyway works but is statistically different than previous solution. Doing it with balanced mainland-type generation is possible but I consider not worth the effort. Doing it like @maroder mentioned:
 

3 hours ago, maroder said:

Sure, you can just increase the number of starting berries and chicken and push the random spawns further away. Or randomly spawn more or less resources close to the CC. The question is if this is perceived as balanced or what option the multiplayer would prefer.

is possible but I think it would look unnatural.

 

Regardless I don't think this would eliminate the need of more strictly balanced maps, in my opinion in very high level 1v1s the additional food matters even if you already had some.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

Yes I think the feldmap as it exists right now is totally fine for 1v1s. It is mainly in TGs where we like the variability, but get annoyed when we have "rock bottom".

On the @maroder suggestion, I think adding 2 berry bushes (400 food) to the starting group would be good enough to make rock bottom a little better. Like with starting berries, perhaps it makes sense to add starting hunt at p1 territory perimeter, I like this better than extra chickens since it is a bit harder to collect.

[LetswaveaBook]

On 22/02/2022 at 8:05 AM, maroder said:

Would you be ok with just replacing mainland with balanced mainland?

While mainland has the best distribution of resources, I wouldn't consider it a piece of art. Replacing mainland with balanced mainland would be fine to me.

 

Though I do feel that we discussing what we do with mainland is harmful. We can do it all, so we need to discuss how to do it all. I suggested making several different types of mainland and put them into their own category.

[nani]

On 21/02/2022 at 10:18 PM, Yekaterina said:

Many players want Feldmap mod to be a vanilla feature of 0AD A26. This mod adds a new map called Mainland Balanced, which has perfectly balanced resource distribution among players. Now I have a problem commiting to this to svn as a patch:

I copied the files into the correct folders, but svn is not detecting it. What went wrong?

in powershell:

No difference detected!

 

svn add file_name

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4248768/including-new-files-in-svn-diff

Edited February 23, 2022 by nani

[andy5995]

1 hour ago, nani said:

svn add file_name

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4248768/including-new-files-in-svn-diff

@YekaterinaYou might also want to try a gui front-end for svn: RapidSVN