Fixing Chinese Han

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, AIEND said:

The problem is that this kind of crossbow from Chu State was not unearthed in the Han Dynasty. As far as written records are concerned, the Han Dynasty people used a much larger repeated crossbow than this, and they used winches. That is to say, the Han Dynasty continuous crossbow is largely the winch crossbow that I suggested you to cancel (used to defend the city instead of attacking the city).

It would be useful to see how this weapon is used to shot. Animated, i.e. in motion.

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 minutes ago, AIEND said:

I suggest that you give the winch repeating crossbow to the Han Dynasty as a technology or faction feature to improve the firepower of the city defense, so that you don't have to study the Han Dynasty repeating crossbow that actually has no reference object.

But do we have to correct the weapon, I mean 3D model?

[AIEND]

8 分钟前，Lion.Kanzen 说：

但是我们是否必须纠正武器，我的意思是 3D 模型？

I mean, you don't have to make a 3D model, you don't need a soldier to hold it. You just need to give it as an attribute to Han Diaolou and Fortresses, Civic Centers, Warships.
Because the crossbowmen of the Han Dynasty did not use repeating crossbows. The repeated crossbow of the Han Dynasty is a large-scale weapon with great pulling force. Soldiers only use it on some fixed facilities. This is why we call this type of weapon a bed crossbow, because it is placed in a bed like a bed where there are no wheels.

[AIEND]

14 分钟前，Lion.Kanzen 说：

但是我们是否必须纠正武器，我的意思是 3D 模型？

The more problem lies in the shooting action of the ordinary crossbowman. The crossbowman needs to bend down and step on the crossbow arm to pull the string, and then get up and shoot the arrow. Is that the case at present?

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 minutes ago, AIEND said:

The more problem lies in the shooting action of the ordinary crossbowman. The crossbowman needs to bend down and step on the crossbow arm to pull the string, and then get up and shoot the arrow. Is that the case at present?

It seems to me that we do not have this animation, it should be reported as -missing-.

But I must say that I don't know if the engine supports a reload animation like that.

Or if it's convenient.

 

@Stan`

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

3 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

It seems to me that we do not have this animation, it should be reported as -missing-.

But I must say that I don't know if the engine supports a reload animation like that.

Or if it's convenient.

 

@Stan`

The Gastraphetes, aka Bellybow, animations for the Macedonians could suffice.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

The Han Minister can now defend himself. Exact values open for debate.
https://trac.wildfiregames.com/changeset/26548

[Genava55]

https://www.facebook.com/ginkgostory

(by the way the pictures below come from facebook, so expect the urls to die at some point)

ZHANG JUE (张角)

Zhang Jue was the leader of the Yellow Turban Rebellion during the late Han dynasty of China. He was said to be a follower of Taoism and a sorcerer. Giving himself the title of "Great Teacher", Zhang Jue led the Yellow Turban Rebellion in a campaign called the "Way of Heaven", to rebelled against the Han dynasty in response to burdensome taxes, rampant corruption, and famine. After the rebellion's defeat, most of them eventually joining the army of the warlord Cao Cao.

东汉末年农民起义军“黄巾军”的领袖。张角修太平道，利用其中的某些宗教观念和社会政治思想，组织群众，约于灵帝建宁（168年-172年）初传道。中平元年（184年），张角以“苍天已死，黄天当立，岁在甲子，天下大吉”为口号，自称“天公将军”，率领群众发动起义，史称“黄巾起义”。不久张角病死，起义军也很快被汉朝所镇压。

 

ZHUGE LIANG (諸葛亮)

Zhuge Liang (181–234 A.D) was a politician, military strategist, writer, engineer and inventor. He served as the chancellor and regent of the state of Shu Han during the Three Kingdoms period. He is recognized as the most accomplished strategist of his era.

诸葛亮 (181年－234年10月8日)，三国蜀汉丞相，是中国历史上著名的政治家、军事家、发明家、及散文家。刘备三顾始见之，为备画据荆益、联孙权、拒曹操之策，佐备取荆州，定益州，遂与魏、吴成鼎足之势。曹丕代汉，备称帝于成都，以亮为丞相。备死，亮辅后主刘禅，以丞相封武乡侯，兼领益州牧。整官制，修法度，志复中原。屡次北伐，与魏相攻战。建兴十二年卒于五丈原军中，年五十四，谥为忠武侯

 

THREE KINGDOMS - MARCH OF THE SHU ARMY

This drawing depicting the fifth march of the Shu army (蜀汉) across Qin Ling mountain range to attack Wei(魏), during the late Three Kingdoms period (234 A.D). I am always fascinated by the realistic and humble narration style of the classic 'Records of the Three Kingdoms'(三国志), and inspired to create this drawing. I hope you enjoy it, thanks!

画作.三国蜀军五出祁山之想象图

今次的画作题材为三国后期蜀汉军队在诸葛亮的指挥下，第五次进攻关中时穿越秦岭斜谷的情景。我一向都比较喜欢古典三国志里相对写实朴素的述事风格，籍同样的方向来制作这次的画作。希望能够以一种平静的心情来三国。谢谢~

 

画作.秦国步兵写家书之想象图

今次的作画题材为一队正在写家书的秦国步兵。他们是战国晚期来自同一个村庄的壮丁, 一起被调到遥远的前线作战。为首的伍长是唯一识字的人, 其他队员就委托他为他们的家人写信。这幅画作的灵感来自于云梦睡虎地出土的秦简家书。当然主角并不是其中的黑夫和惊, 而是其他数以万计消失在历史中, 想念家人的秦兵。

在我的Youtube视频上观看此画作的幕后制作过程：https://youtu.be/aTJSM336h3Y

Terracotta Warriors (Qin Infantry) Writing Family Letters

This drawing depict a group of Qin dynasty infantry writing letters to their families at the frontline. The backdrop is set to be the battle against Chu rebellion around the year 223 B.C. The inspiration is coming from a Qin dynasty family letter (Shui Hu Di Qin Jian) discovered in 1975.

To see behind the scene and workflow video of this drawing, please visit my Youtube channel:

https://youtu.be/aTJSM336h3Y

 

东汉武士格斗之想象图

公元25年, 刘秀在河北称帝, 建立东汉政权, 开始对新朝末年在中原各地建立的自立政权发动统一战争。在长达12年席卷全中原的战争期间, 又有哪些可歌可泣的故事呢? 图为陇西之战时, 刘秀与隗纯的部队正在激战。今次想探索一下东汉时期的一些兵器。左边留大胡子的大叔手执手戟与盾牌, 右边的大兄则以环首刀与钩镶对应。

Close combat scene of Eastern Han's warriors

Liu Xiu (Emperor Guang Wu) started his campaign to re-uniting China again after established Eastern Han dynasty in 25 A.D. Liu Xiu's troop spent 12 years to conquer other warloard across China. This illustration depicting a close combat scene between Liu Xiu and Kui Chun's troop. The warrior on the left equipped with a Shou Ji (手戟: short halberd) and a wooden shield, his opponent is countering with Huan Shou Dao (环首刀: rounded head blade) and a Gou Rang (钩镶: a type of buckler with hooks)

 

Xia Hou Dun ( 夏侯惇 )

Chief military commander of the Wei army. The most trusted general of Cao cao. He lost his left eye to a strafe arrow during the battle against Lü Bu. Since then, he has obtained the alias "Blind Xia Hou". He is holding a golden axe, a symbol of higest military authority.

 

Xian Zhen Ying 陷阵营 (Formation Destroyer Unit)

Lü Bu's strongest heavy infantry unit, their commander is the legendary general Gao Shun (高顺). This unit is well equipped and very discipline, they are feared by many other warlord at that time, including Liu Bei and Cao Cao. The number of soldier is always around 700 people, but their combat ability is equivalent to a thousand strong. The warrior in this picture equipped a unique buckler call Gou Rang (钩镶). It has two hooks on the top and bottom, to parry halberd.

 

Wu Dang Fei Jun 無當飛軍 (Unstoppable Flying Army)

Under Zhuge Lliang's order, a special unit recruited from the minority tribe of the southern china. This troop consist the minority tribe of Southern Tribe (南中夷族) and Blue Qiang Tribe (青羌族), specialized in mountain warfare. They are mostly using bow and poison arrow in the battle. In the battle of Zhong Men Dao, they ambush and kill Wei kingdom famous general Zhang He (张郃).

無當飛軍

诸葛亮在南中平定战后徵召的少数民族战士，善长山地作战。在第四次北伐时，于木门道伏击并射杀魏国大将张郃。

 

Tai Shi Xi (太史慈)

A very brave general of Sun Wu kingdom. In a reconnaissance mission, Tai Shi Xi encountered and challege Sun Ce (孙策) alone, his courage had impressed Sun Ce. He eventually being invited by Sun Ce to join his camp and became one of the most important general of Sun Wu. He is most famous for his outstanding archery skill.

太史慈

孙吴大将。 猿臂善射，弦不虚发

 

 

Xian Deng Si Shi 先登死士 (Spearhead Suicide Squad)

Yuan Shao's special crossbowman unit, equipped with big shield and powerful crossbow. In the battle of Jie Qiao, Yuan Shao sent in 800 infantry and thousands of crossbowman as a suicide squad against Gong Sunzhan's light cavalry. They hide behind the big shield and wait until the enemy get close, and destroyed their enemy by firing their crossbow at once.

先登死士

袁袑的敢死队，装备大盾与强弩。在界桥之战全灭公孙瓒的轻骑兵部队。

Edited March 6, 2022 by Genava55

[Lion.Kanzen]

What beautiful illustrations.

They have a lot of charisma and at the same time history accuracy.

[Player of 0AD]

Ministers have 20/s capture speed - thats twice as much as heroes have. Isnt it too much?

Fields are cheaper, smaller and need only 3 women. Thats a huge advantage. And no, they are not much slower. After first farming tech only 10% slower than normal fields with first tech, and if all techs are researched the difference is only like 2%. Reason is that farming with 5 women at once has a higher debuff than farming with 3 women at once

Is the first hero not too good? It helps all allies and own units on the whole map. If an ally combines him with an own speed hero the speed bonus will be like 32% - isnt that way too fast?

Enhanced Civic centers seem to be too powerful because of 40 Projectiles and 40 garrison size - how is one supposed to destroy that? Especially as there are additional techs for extra health.

If you conquer barracks or stables of another civ, you can train champions there. Must be a bug, it's too OP

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

6 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said:

Ministers have 20/s capture speed - thats twice as much as heroes have. Isnt it too much?

Can look into that^

 

6 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said:

Fields are cheaper, smaller and need only 3 women. Thats a huge advantage. And no, they are not much slower. After first farming tech only 10% slower than normal fields with first tech, and if all techs are researched the difference is only like 2%. Reason is that farming with 5 women at once has a higher debuff than farming with 3 women at once

They originally weren't so OP, but folks wanted me to make them cheaper, etc. *shrug* I think 75 wood cost, instead of 60, is worth it considering that other farm fields have a steeper diminishing returns penalty. The Minister boosting wood cutters can help make up the difference. 

 

8 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said:

Is the first hero not too good? It helps all allies and own units on the whole map. If an ally combines him with an own speed hero the speed bonus will be like 32% - isnt that way too fast?

I agree the heroes need reworked. I think heroes in general need reworked, but the Han especially. 

 

9 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said:

Enhanced Civic centers seem to be too powerful because of 40 Projectiles and 40 garrison size - how is one supposed to destroy that? Especially as there are additional techs for extra health.

Lol, I can look into the projectiles thing. I also want to revamp this upgrade. It all depends on what the rest of the team is willing to let me do, considering we are in feature freeze.

 

12 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said:

If you conquer barracks or stables of another civ, you can train champions there. Must be a bug, it's too OP

I agree. I know how to fix this, but it will be messy on the backend. Again, feature freeze.

[Stan`]

6 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Lol, I can look into the projectiles thing. I also want to revamp this upgrade. It all depends on what the rest of the team is willing to let me do, considering we are in feature freeze.

Well we're not adding new features but some balancing changes can go in as long as one is very careful about not breaking everything. Ideally it wouldn't change strings much too because that more strain on the translators.

6 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I agree. I know how to fix this, but it will be messy on the backend. Again, feature freeze.

What do you have in mind? Having at least one person to back you up might help. I'm not against merging balancing changes but I'd like to have at least two people agreeing on it. For bigger patches like the fortress thing 3-4 would be great.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

13 minutes ago, Stan` said:

What do you have in mind?

I think the solution to the champion "problem" is to have 2 templates for each champion. The ones trained from the Han Academy would have _academy or other some such suffix. Both templates would have the same SelectionGroup. Similar to how the "House" females work. Sound like the way to go?

 

15 minutes ago, Stan` said:

For bigger patches like the fortress thing 3-4 would be great.

Fortress Thing™ is definitely A27 material.

[Stan`]

52 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

1 hour ago, Stan` said:

 

I think the solution to the champion "problem" is to have 2 templates for each champion. The ones trained from the Han Academy would have _academy or other some such suffix. Both templates would have the same SelectionGroup. Similar to how the "House" females work. Sound like the way to go?

Sounds good. Han only right?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

3 minutes ago, Stan` said:

Sounds good. Han only right?

Well yeah

[Stan`]

Sgtm

[Lion.Kanzen]

which is the icon concept that will be  used for the academy?

[AIEND]

25 分钟前，Lion.Kanzen 说：

将用于学院的图标概念是什么？

I don't recommend using the academy building to train soldiers, because the Han Dynasty didn't have such an institution, you could make it something like a "guardian barracks" or simply train champions in regular barracks and stables.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

We can leverage the "Upgrading" feature that the Han use some more by making the Han Academy an "Upgrade" for Barracks, instead of a standalone structure to build. Again, what that does is leverage the existing penchant given to the Han civ of upgrading individual structures to better versions of themselves.

[SDM]

On 26/02/2022 at 6:10 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

If the Han did not have repeating crossbows, then we can't have the tech.

Without the repeater mechanism and magazine, a crossbow is not faster than a bow. It's easier to operate. Easier to train on, etc. That's why I wanted them to be trash units.

I'm not a history buff, but this is true of the Middle Ages. The Genovese crossbowmen were famed mercenaries and had all of the described advantages in closer ranges compared to archers, but when the English created obstacles to slow down their enemies' approach, their also highly regarded longbowmen were able to launch a barrage of arrows at the opposing crossbowmen who couldn't get close enough to shoot.

I can see this being true for Han crossbows.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

On 16/12/2022 at 5:08 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

We can leverage the "Upgrading" feature that the Han use some more by making the Han Academy an "Upgrade" for Barracks, instead of a standalone structure to build. Again, what that does is leverage the existing penchant given to the Han civ of upgrading individual structures to better versions of themselves.

I think this could be good, might make the ministers more accessible. Also, there is no need for ministers to cost 2 pop, the cost is prohibitive enough to spam.

Edited December 20, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[chrstgtr]

28 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I think this could be good, might make the ministers more accessible. Also, there is no need for ministers to cost 2 pop, the cost is prohibitive enough to spam.

Ministers also have to be buffed if you want anyone to make them. Right now, you're better off just making a unit that can eco because the discounts are so small. I would suggest 5% instead of the 2%. 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I think this could be good, might make the ministers more accessible. Also, there is no need for ministers to cost 2 pop, the cost is prohibitive enough to spam.

 

32 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

Ministers also have to be buffed if you want anyone to make them. Right now, you're better off just making a unit that can eco because the discounts are so small. I would suggest 5% instead of the 2%. 

Do you think this is something for the Community mod or a Phab patch?

[chrstgtr]

50 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Do you think this is something for the Community mod or a Phab patch?

Both. I think it has to change--2% is obviously too low. I'm not certain 5% is right, but I'm pretty sure it won't be OP. Community mod gets it into game quicker. Phab makes it permanent. Could go with something more radical like 10% in the community mod and test first, though. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Fire ships can be trained from captured docks

crossbow training can be researched from the stables and mentions crossbow cavalry train time reduction.