All Civilizations are my favorite.

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

I mean something that is more than just a name change too...

I am not suggesting any name change.

Above I left a list of Republican units.

[chrstgtr]

1 minute ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

I am not suggesting any name change.

Above I left a list of Republican units.

Still. I mean different in function. So not just a different name/units. What LetsWaveABook suggested was totally unique. Changing name and unit type would not be. 

 

Edit: I don't have a good suggestion myself--making totally unique features is hard.

Edited November 8, 2021 by chrstgtr

[Dizaka]

11 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Maybe bonus to recruit cheaper.

I was thinking metal-only cost and merc-type rank.

[LetswaveaBook]

11 minutes ago, Dizaka said:

Auxiliary units could be the Roman Mercs maybe?

The Roman republic had more citizens than most other states, simply because they granted loyal allies citizenship. I think the way Auxiliary troops worked was that they were recruited from non-latin citizens or other (non-citizen) allies. If you served for several years in the army, you recieved citizenship. So it seems more fitting to make them citizen soldiers.

20 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

I always thought that the Roman roster is very limited (and boring)

When I think of very limited and boring, Sparta comes to mind. Romans do have their military camps.

[artoo]

14 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

Edit: I don't have a good suggestion myself--making totally unique features is hard.

The earlier example with the Han Barracks would be such a case.

In theory, I haven't tested, the only other civ with access to crossbow is Macedonians who could build crossbowmen.

The Ji/Halberd is unique to Han only. So capturing a Han barracks would give access to 2 unique units no other faction has.

 

Acquiring tech by capturing enemy building has been a standard feature in Warcraft and Starcraft.

Can make interesting games with surprises, granted the factions are unique.

I like the idea to have that in 0AD.

Edited November 8, 2021 by artoo

[chrstgtr]

4 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

The Roman republic had more citizens than most other states, simply because they granted loyal allies citizenship. I think the way Auxiliary troops worked was that they were recruited from non-latin citizens or other (non-citizen) allies. If you served for several years in the army, you recieved citizenship. So it seems more fitting to make them citizen soldiers.

25 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

If that is true then maybe make it something like dogs but with weaker units that can level up into CS and then those leveled up units don't counter against your pop count? 

[chrstgtr]

1 minute ago, artoo said:

The earlier example with the Han Barracks would be such a case.

In theory, I haven't tested, the only other civ with access to crossbow is Macedonians who could build crossbowmen.

The Ji/Halberd is unique to Han only. So capturing a Han barracks would give access to 2 unique units no other faction has.

 

Acquiring tech by capturing enemy building has been a standard feature in Warcraft and Starcraft.

Can make interesting games with surprises, granted the factions are unique.

I like the idea to have that in 0AD.

0ad isn't balanced well enough to allow this. If you are capturing a bunch of enemy buildings then you have already won. (It would also create snowballing issues, otherwise)

[Gurken Khan]

8 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

Romans do have their military camps.

True, but they don't add anything to the roster.

[chrstgtr]

Separately, I would also like propose offensive priests that convert enemy units. Not sure what civ this would fit best with (Rome would've been nice in the Constantine era, but that is after the 0ad timeframe)

[LetswaveaBook]

@ValihrAnt wanted to add colonies to every faction. Maybe we could give Romans instead of a colony something like an allied village, functioning like a colony but being able to train auxiliary units.

[artoo]

6 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

0ad isn't balanced well enough to allow this. If you are capturing a bunch of enemy buildings then you have already won. (It would also create snowballing issues, otherwise)

Well, I would put more importance on differentiation and depth instead of balancing.

Once you have unique factions, it may be easier to balance than the current approach with many factions and too similar units and function of buildings.

 

Iirc, it was the worker you could capture with an archon, ie only Protos had this ability, and only a special unit.

[chrstgtr]

4 minutes ago, artoo said:

Well, I would put more importance on differentiation and depth instead of balancing.

Once you have unique factions, it may be easier to balance than the current approach with many factions and too similar units and function of buildings.

 

I don't entirely disagree. But functionally this would mean those units never get use. You used to be able to do this (e.g., Maurya could get rams in a23 if they captured a fort and Mace could get champ skirms and swords if they captured the right buildings), but because of balancing issues these functions were all but never used. 

ETA All this is to say we are a long way away from such a feature *actually* being a feature and not a trivial footnote

Edited November 8, 2021 by chrstgtr

[Gurken Khan]

1 hour ago, LetswaveaBook said:

@ValihrAnt wanted to add colonies to every faction. Maybe we could give Romans instead of a colony something like an allied village, functioning like a colony but being able to train auxiliary units.

I was always puzzled what would determine which civ could build colonies; after all, most of our civs spread over at least one (sub-)continent or more?

I just learned the other day (from a youtube vid) that Nuba Villages can be build in neutral terrain; but they have territorial decay. Maybe we could expand on that idea and give all civs some kind of special colony? (I sometimes mainly build a colony just to get access to certain mercs.)

[Lion.Kanzen]

43 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

civs some kind of special colony? (I sometimes mainly build a colony just to get access to certain mercs.)

not all civs are for that.

 

I prefer the mercenary camps to capture them on the map.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

4 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

I don't have a good suggestion myself--making totally unique features is hard.

Steal some from Delenda Est. 

[Lion.Kanzen]

10 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Steal some from Delenda Est. 

in turn they are ideas from other games. that yes well corrected, and joint.

[Fabius]

How about allowing Roman military camps to be built in allied territory and allowing them to recruit troops that your allies have? its a purely team based bonus, but maybe something unique to consider for team games. 

I like the idea of hastati having a pilum attack, but I think for the sake of simplicity it should simply be treated like how maiden guard can switch between sword or bow. I think again this was done in Delende Est. And I think it can also be justified historically because most combat in 0 AD is taking place in or around a supply base. So infinite pila is not unreasonable. I would take it one step further and maintain the original unit stats, so you have what is essentially a heavier skirmisher but it moves slower and can fight in melee if required. This is I think would be a good way to capture the essence of early Roman legionaries while keeping it nice and simple. And the code has already been done in Delende Est so its available for use in this regard, just needs tweaking  

[Fabius]

Regarding Roman logistics. I was given the idea of having a mule that buffs the movement speed of troops in a small radius, or the work rate.

Possible unique technologies could be roads, so faster movement in your own territory. Then also the roman caligue could be another tech which again buffs troop movement. Not suggesting using all of these as much as having an ultra fast roman army would be hilarious to do.

On a different note, Rome did start military colonies with its retired troops so what about a roman colony that trains veteran troops? Rather than having them trained from a military camp which is nice, but a colony is much more useful at a macro level.

[Lion.Kanzen]

On 08/11/2021 at 3:03 PM, chrstgtr said:

Separately, I would also like propose offensive priests that convert enemy units. Not sure what civ this would fit best with (Rome would've been nice in the Constantine era, but that is after the 0ad timeframe)

Egypt cult to Isis and Persians with Babylonian cult , Iranian Mitraism (mystical oriental cults).

Perhaps the Seleucids have many strong cults in their empire, including   the Cybele cult.

The Baal Cult [Carthage]  was syncretized on several sides, but it was because Hellenization. Same with Asherah/Astaroth.

[Dakara]

To come back to Rome, at the military level, they are too classic.

No civilization uses a combo basic unit :  sword melee and archers as citizen troops phase 1. It could be interesting. Phase 2 we can train triari (spear rang 3 like skiritais but as spear unit).

I like the idea that auxiliaries can be trained in captured barracks, but that won't be used often. It's too anecdotal.

For the sake of balance I think the auxiliaries should be mercenaries, they are not low cost units but experienced combat units. This comes at a significant cost. Auxiliaries do not come to sacrifice their lives at reduced cost. Rome need this units for army (archers, cavalry, special unit).

If we want a civilization to reduce the cost of mercenaries, I thought of Carthage as a civilization bonus instead of their useless bonus. -20% cost mercenary cost. Thanks to this bonus and to up the cost of mercenaries for example from 80 to 100 metal. The costs remain unchanged for Cartage and allies and at the same time the mercenaries are nerf a little thanks for their cost.

I don't think all civilizations should have military colonies. It's great that two civilizations have access to it. (4 with Carthage and Bretons on water map).

What do you think of the redesign of the Roman sword units then?

 

Britons idendity and idea : 

Civilisation bonus : Atm they have weak building and fast construction. For me it ok, they sould he have the weakeast building of all civilisation.  In a logic of rapid construction for less resistance.

Bonus de civilisation : 
Bâtiment plus faible et rapide à construire : Tout à fait d'accord, pour moi ils doivent avoir les bâtiments les plus faibles.

Team bonus :

Delete the bonus cost monk/druid of 20% by a new bonus : All monk/druide train are trained by 2 for the same cost.  It like -50% cost for same training time.  

 

Cout guerrisseurs -20% : Ok comme bonus mais il faudra un truc en plus, par exemple les soigneurs sont produits par 2 pour le cout identique? Qu'en pensez vous ? CELA correspond à -50% de cout de productiin pour un temps identique. The Bretons are on paper less strong than the Gauls. A little up would not be too much.

New technlogie of civ: Allow the production of mounted druids in the stables.

Gauls idea :

For the Gauls, the forge could have two different production lines, in order to be able to research two technologies on the same forge.

 

Iberes :

Ally bonus team : Make the bonus ineffective on Allied Skirmishers.

 

Séleucides 

New tech : Cavalry archers can attack while moving

 

Carthage :

Actual Bonus civilisation :

commercial talent: too specific, too strong on the maps where it can be used, realistic but too difficult to integrate into the gameplay: -> Delete this bonus

Rare products: -> Delete  this bonus

By removing these two techs we could imagine free cartography technology? it will take only 40 sec of research time for a cost of 0. We keep the commercial aspect of the civ by giving a mini buff.

New bonus civilisation :

Cartography : Cost 0, only 40 seconds.

As i said delete the actuel bonus team. New bonus team : -20% cost for mercenary units

Fortress: -50% construction time. To complete their reputation as builders

Actual bonus civilisation

Colonization: Interesting, the market could not be classified as CIVIL building for a roleplay bonus ?

New tech in dock : 

Repair at sea: out of combat, the boats are repaired by the crew automatically at a rate of 1 hp per second.

Finally to give them an identity if you want to play them without mercenaries and insist on the ability to control elephants. A new 1-pop champion elephant unit. A combat-focused unit that is not intended to be a siege unit. Slightly slower than the cavalry. In the elephant building. 

So maurya have archer elephant for fight and carthage melee elephant for fight.

Athens :

Bonus civilisation : Warship construction time -25% -> construction time of all ships -20%

An orther champion unit infanterie ? a pikeman unit choose in gymnasium building.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Dakara

[Radiotraining]

2 hours ago, Dakara said:

I like the idea that auxiliaries can be trained in captured barracks, but that won't be used often. It's too anecdotal.

I strongly agree with this: it's an interesting idea on paper, but quite impractical in the gameplay. I wouldn't rely on this mechanic for an important set of extra units, also because it doesn't happen easily to have the chance to conquer a barracks, rather than the CC and all the core buildings while in the enemy's territory. And in those cases, in a 1v1 setting, you would end the game before even having the chance to get new units.

So I think there should be also a "regular" way to get them, by extra techs or buildings.

[Fabius]

6 hours ago, Radiotraining said:

I strongly agree with this: it's an interesting idea on paper, but quite impractical in the gameplay. I wouldn't rely on this mechanic for an important set of extra units, also because it doesn't happen easily to have the chance to conquer a barracks, rather than the CC and all the core buildings while in the enemy's territory. And in those cases, in a 1v1 setting, you would end the game before even having the chance to get new units.

So I think there should be also a "regular" way to get them, by extra techs or buildings.

I agree, capturing in order to get extra units is a nice side distraction, but ultimately will be considered irrelevant to the main objective of winning. Here is an idea using the tech idea, borrow the pick one mechanic used so much in Delende Est and create two technologies, each gives a selection of auxiliary units specific to a culture Rome would have historically drawn auxiliaries from. Then you present this as a choice to a Roman player. say in phase 2. This allows for strategic trade offs and overall unit diversity without having an over expanded unit roster. Seleucids does this currently with Reform and Traditional armies.

[Fabius]

10 hours ago, Dakara said:

To come back to Rome, at the military level, they are too classic.

No civilization uses a combo basic unit :  sword melee and archers as citizen troops phase 1. It could be interesting. Phase 2 we can train triari (spear rang 3 like skiritais but as spear unit).

I like the idea that auxiliaries can be trained in captured barracks, but that won't be used often. It's too anecdotal.

For the sake of balance I think the auxiliaries should be mercenaries, they are not low cost units but experienced combat units. This comes at a significant cost. Auxiliaries do not come to sacrifice their lives at reduced cost. Rome need this units for army (archers, cavalry, special unit).

If we want a civilization to reduce the cost of mercenaries, I thought of Carthage as a civilization bonus instead of their useless bonus. -20% cost mercenary cost. Thanks to this bonus and to up the cost of mercenaries for example from 80 to 100 metal. The costs remain unchanged for Cartage and allies and at the same time the mercenaries are nerf a little thanks for their cost.

I don't think all civilizations should have military colonies. It's great that two civilizations have access to it. (4 with Carthage and Bretons on water map).

What do you think of the redesign of the Roman sword units then?

 

Britons idendity and idea : 

Civilisation bonus : Atm they have weak building and fast construction. For me it ok, they sould he have the weakeast building of all civilisation.  In a logic of rapid construction for less resistance.

Bonus de civilisation : 
Bâtiment plus faible et rapide à construire : Tout à fait d'accord, pour moi ils doivent avoir les bâtiments les plus faibles.

Team bonus :

Delete the bonus cost monk/druid of 20% by a new bonus : All monk/druide train are trained by 2 for the same cost.  It like -50% cost for same training time.  

 

Cout guerrisseurs -20% : Ok comme bonus mais il faudra un truc en plus, par exemple les soigneurs sont produits par 2 pour le cout identique? Qu'en pensez vous ? CELA correspond à -50% de cout de productiin pour un temps identique. The Bretons are on paper less strong than the Gauls. A little up would not be too much.

New technlogie of civ: Allow the production of mounted druids in the stables.

Gauls idea :

For the Gauls, the forge could have two different production lines, in order to be able to research two technologies on the same forge.

 

Iberes :

Ally bonus team : Make the bonus ineffective on Allied Skirmishers.

 

Séleucides 

New tech : Cavalry archers can attack while moving

 

Carthage :

Actual Bonus civilisation :

commercial talent: too specific, too strong on the maps where it can be used, realistic but too difficult to integrate into the gameplay: -> Delete this bonus

Rare products: -> Delete  this bonus

By removing these two techs we could imagine free cartography technology? it will take only 40 sec of research time for a cost of 0. We keep the commercial aspect of the civ by giving a mini buff.

New bonus civilisation :

Cartography : Cost 0, only 40 seconds.

As i said delete the actuel bonus team. New bonus team : -20% cost for mercenary units

Fortress: -50% construction time. To complete their reputation as builders

Actual bonus civilisation

Colonization: Interesting, the market could not be classified as CIVIL building for a roleplay bonus ?

New tech in dock : 

Repair at sea: out of combat, the boats are repaired by the crew automatically at a rate of 1 hp per second.

Finally to give them an identity if you want to play them without mercenaries and insist on the ability to control elephants. A new 1-pop champion elephant unit. A combat-focused unit that is not intended to be a siege unit. Slightly slower than the cavalry. In the elephant building. 

So maurya have archer elephant for fight and carthage melee elephant for fight.

Athens :

Bonus civilisation : Warship construction time -25% -> construction time of all ships -20%

An orther champion unit infanterie ? a pikeman unit choose in gymnasium building.

I agree not all civs should have a colony, but certainly empire building civs should have one or something similar. And Rome is the quintessential empire builder so it is a reasonable suggestion that they have something along those lines. 

Regarding veteran Triarii cost, I say it ought to be left the same. Skiritai are a sword unit, so not a direct comparison for Triarii which are spearmen, which don't cost metal unless champions. Rome already has swordsmen, adding another metal cost means Rome has no melee infantry in event of a metal shortage and that is unacceptable from a game play viewpoint.

[artoo]

13 minutes ago, Fabius said:

each gives a selection of auxiliary units specific to a culture Rome would have historically drawn auxiliaries from. Then you present this as a choice to a Roman player. say in phase 2. This allows for strategic trade offs and overall unit diversity without having an over expanded unit roster. Seleucids does this currently with Reform and Traditional armies.

 

I would this mechanic apply to the "double civs", britons & gauls, successors, greeks. Have one faction, and make the distinction via tech tree in-game. This would cut down playable civs and probably create unique factions, and a few civs less to balance.

Edited November 11, 2021 by artoo

[LetswaveaBook]

On 11/11/2021 at 12:52 PM, Dakara said:

. The Bretons are on paper less strong than the Gauls.

I think the contrary is true.

Britons start with a war dog and have slingers in p1. Gauls on the other hand have no good way to utilize the 300 stone they get at the start. So basically you have a head start with Britons.

The gauls have +10% attack for melee cavalry, which is not super relevant. Also I prefer to have the chariots over the melee champion cavalry. They get a technology for faster farming, but that is not relevant until you have done the second farming upgrade. So while the Gauls have advantages, they get them late. The Britons can field 20 war dogs that do not require population, so you can't say Britons are just worse in the late game. The Gauls have good heroes, but the Britons with Caractacus are good as well.