Cavalry archer turret mechanic

[Yekaterina]

10 minutes ago, PyrrhicVictoryGuy said:

Oh thats neat, but i though egys used bows on their chariots , that's why I specified the Myceneans or Achaeans.

ok. If the default is changed then the mod will also change. 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

 

24 minutes ago, Dragonoar said:

Also, that attack speed nerf seems unnecessary. Ultimately it's the first shot of a massed horse archers that matters.

Keep in mind that as it exists now, the mechanic does not operate on a volley basis (neither does anything in 0ad). You can't even choose what target to attack with the mouse. As for the first shot being more important, do you mean in real life, in 0ad, or in most RTS games? As far as I know, the first shot only matters in 0ad if you hope to take out a high value target quickly.

Ideally there would still be advantages to stationary shooting from horses and it should probably make more dps overall.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@Yekaterina I was wondering if it is possible to limit the shooting range for moving, non-chariot ranged units to the front 180 degrees?

Reasons:

• no ones back is that flexible
• allows melee cav to chase
• gives the mechanic a weak side, so they should go toward or alongside an enemy but not away. This way they wont behave quite like siege towers.

[Yekaterina]

Just now, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I was wondering if it is possible to limit the shooting range for moving, non-chariot ranged units to the front 180 degrees?

It is difficult. I need to consult with other programmers. 

 

I am thinking about only giving this mechanic to chariots to distinguish them from regular cavalry. On chariots you should be able to throw stuff in any direction relatively easily. 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

16 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

It is difficult. I need to consult with other programmers. 

 

I am thinking about only giving this mechanic to chariots to distinguish them from regular cavalry. On chariots you should be able to throw stuff in any direction relatively easily. 

That makes sense. This will probably make chariots more fun to use. It is probably also more balance-risk to enable this for non-chariot units.

[Yekaterina]

2 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

That makes sense. This will probably make chariots more fun to use. It is probably also more balance-risk to enable this for non-chariot units.

Summon more balancing advisors to discuss chariots?

Should I make this patch? 

[Freagarach]

5 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I was wondering if it is possible to limit the shooting range for moving, non-chariot ranged units to the front 180 degrees?

There is a proof of concept lying around, but it is far from finished (and outdated).

4 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

Should I make this patch?

Do note that using BuildingAI for the turret mechanic will probably not be favoured, since the unit misses the animation. That said, with the current mechanics one *can* use turrets for chariots, but ordering them will not behave as expected. In short: You can make a patch, but I think the chances are slim it will be implemented, unless someone improves the handling.

[Yekaterina]

7 hours ago, Freagarach said:

but I think the chances are slim it will be implemented, unless someone improves the handling.

I will try to tweak the actor file so that it shows shooting

[Stan`]

It's an actor issue it's a js limitation iirc.

[Dragonoar]

18 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

 

Keep in mind that as it exists now, the mechanic does not operate on a volley basis (neither does anything in 0ad). As for the first shot being more important, do you mean in real life, in 0ad, or in most RTS games? As far as I know, the first shot only matters in 0ad if you hope to take out a high value target quickly.

Ideally there would still be advantages to stationary shooting from horses and it should probably make more dps overall.

You're right. I underestimated how slow horse archers are in 0 AD, as I was thinking of the mangudai in AoE2 when I wrote that. But I'm still against the accuracy debuff, simply because it's annoying and I don't like RNG.

I don't understand what you mean by this, though:

18 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

You can't even choose what target to attack with the mouse. 

 

[Yekaterina]

18 minutes ago, Dragonoar said:

don't understand what you mean by this, though:

18 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Sometimes the archers don't shoot at the target that you right-clicked, instead they shoot at something else. This is also a problem with catapults. 

Also sometimes the model sizes are too small to be clicked on accurately. 

[Gurken Khan]

17 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

Sometimes the archers don't shoot at the target that you right-clicked, instead they shoot at something else. This is also a problem with catapults.

When a selected target didn't get hit I attributed it to spread.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@Yekaterina@Dragonoar

I was just trying to say that you can not choose your target if you are moving while shooting from horses/chariots. Sorry for the confusion.

[alre]

19 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

@Yekaterina I was wondering if it is possible to limit the shooting range for moving, non-chariot ranged units to the front 180 degrees?

Reasons:

• no ones back is that flexible
• allows melee cav to chase
• gives the mechanic a weak side, so they should go toward or alongside an enemy but not away. This way they wont behave quite like siege towers.

Actually, horse archers were famously capable of shooting at the back of their horses (partian shot). Instead, they had probably more problems while shooting at their weak arm side.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

57 minutes ago, alre said:

Actually, horse archers were famously capable of shooting at the back of their horses (partian shot). Instead, they had probably more problems while shooting at their weak arm side.

Indeed, so for realism it would probably need to be like a 180 degree angle from the front to back on the right side, then we would probably need a range indicator. This would mean that cav archers seeking to circle an army and continuously launch arrows would need to do so clockwise, and thus have a more predictable path if the defender knows this information.

This is all quite complicated for non-chariot units, so I think it is a good thing to try chariots first.

As for the Parthian shot, I totally should have remembered this from the history books!

 

[AIEND]

On 09/07/2021 at 2:54 AM, alre said:

实际上，众所周知，骑马弓箭手能够在他们的马背上射击（partian shot）。 相反，他们在弱臂一侧射击时可能会遇到更多问题。

There is a Chinese word called "left and right opening the bow", which means to switch between the left and right hands on the horse to shoot arrows to both sides.

[AIEND]

Being able to shoot arrows while galloping is realistic. many civilizations invented chariots to provide a platform where you can shoot arrows while running fast. The Egyptian chariot is a good example.
My advice on how to balance a riding shooter is:
1. Make them fire slower than walking archers.
2. The range is closer.
3. The hit rate is lower.
These three points exist in reality, so nomads often dismount their horses to shoot arrows and defeat the enemy's cavalry archers in this way, such as Seyanto did when he defeated the Turks.

Edited February 28, 2022 by AIEND

[Lion.Kanzen]

6 minutes ago, AIEND said:

Being able to shoot arrows while galloping is realistic. many civilizations invented chariots to provide a platform where you can shoot arrows while running fast. The Egyptian chariot is a good example.
My advice on how to balance a riding shooter is:
1. Make them fire slower than walking archers.
2. The range is closer.
3. The hit rate is lower.
These three points exist in reality, so nomads often dismount their horses to shoot arrows and defeat the enemy's cavalry archers in this way, such as Seyanto did when he defeated the Turks.

Again its  needed some patches  (programming), there are already open tickets.

@Stan` Get to know patches better.

We have animation issues with mounted units.

[Stan`]

Sadly the turret functionality @Freagarach implemented is not complete yet

[Freagarach]

I would suggest people try to use the feature with chariots, it works quite well.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

30 minutes ago, Freagarach said:

I would suggest people try to use the feature with chariots, it works quite well.

Can you point to some examples or a wiki page or any documentation for the feature? 

[Freagarach]

33 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Can you point to some examples or a wiki page or any documentation for the feature? 

I only have a relic of the past: https://code.wildfiregames.com/D1958?vs=on&id=16857. I included template changes in there to test Boudicca and the three archers on an elephant.