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Cavalry archer turret mechanic


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When firing, the cavalry archers currently implemented ingame has to stop fully, aim, then fire. This is great for taking an accurate shot but not necessarily historically accurate for all civilisations. Some cavalry archers like the Parthians could aim and fire while the horse is running at full speed. Although not always accurate, it is still deadly as a large number of cavalry means continuous arrow shower from all directions and the agility of the cavalry will save them from charging infantry.

I am not the first person to suggest this, here are the posts:

On 06/07/2021 at 12:20 AM, Dragonoar said:

Instead of the horse that rotates it's the guy riding the horse, so archer cavs behave more realistically

also allows for parthian shot and run n gun gameplay a la horse archers in total war (which could be annoying and/or OP). 

 

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Speaking of Carrhae, why is  Parthians not in 0AD? Why has no-one mentioned them yet? Also the Sassanids, Kushan etc

2 minutes ago, PyrrhicVictoryGuy said:

How would one counter these units? Wouldn't they frustrating to go against? Total war has it so foot archers counter these mounted troops while other RTS have units like these that are made of paper...

We can make them slower and weaker. Also massively decrease their accuracy. Spear cavalry should take on them just fine. 

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@Yekaterina This looks great. I am thinking this mechanic will go far to differentiate cavalry archers from regular archers in use. Maybe as archer cavalry rank up, they can shoot more accurately or at a higher fire rate while moving, as obviously it would take a lot of experience to improve with shooting while galloping.

Four questions for everybody who wants to contribute an opinion:

  • Should moving while shooting be less accurate, less range, less damage, or less fire rate?
  • Should mounted archers improve this ability as they rank up?
  • Should cavalry/chariot javelineers be capable of this as well?, and should the mechanic have special rules for them?
  • Should chariot based units be better at shooting while moving? I would argue sure since chariot units are champions, and they are already expensive.

I think it is important to make sure that there are advantages to shooting while moving and shooting while stationary, this way it is a more skillful gameplay decision on how to use ranged cavalry.

 

Edited by BreakfastBurrito_007
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49 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Should moving while shooting be less accurate, less range, less damage, or less fire rate?

Yes, unless we increase the training time of these cavalry units to reflect that real humans need more practice to master shooting on horseback than stood still. 

50 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Should mounted archers improve this ability as they rank up?

Of course, as they rank up it means they have gained more experience and hence more likely to be skilled. 

50 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Should cavalry/chariot javelineers be capable of this as well?, and should the mechanic have special rules for them?

Some civs should. But please remember that some chariots were used to charge at infantry formation and scatter them, while others were  used for ranged harassment. This leads to another idea: chariot differentiation. 

52 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Should chariot based units be better at shooting while moving? I would argue sure since chariot units are champions, and they are already expensive.

They do deserve to be accurate even if they are moving. But to prevent them from being OP I would recommend decreasing their damage. 36 pierce for Brit Chariots is ridiculous if this mechanism is implemented. 

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2 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said:

It might be more realistic if they can also shoot while moving... but its bad for the game, because that would be totally OP and annoying.

yes, but we nerf the arrows by increasing their spread to 3 or 4 (you can't target that well if you are on a horse unless you have trained hard)

Also we decrease the range and damage of arrows (might not hit directly)

 

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I was thinking of the one in the thread @Freagarach mentioned, but instead of the whole person, it's just the upper body that rotates. Functionally, though, your solution would do the job as well, I think.

5 hours ago, PyrrhicVictoryGuy said:

How would one counter these units? Wouldn't they frustrating to go against? Total war has it so foot archers counter these mounted troops while other RTS have units like these that are made of paper...

What about giving them shorter range than the regular archer? In other RTS these kinds of units are only good for dancing and kiting. If you give take away the range then they can't kite. (can still dance tho)

Total war's counter works because of the unit size. 160 foot archers vs 60 horse archers at max. 

2 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

@Yekaterina This looks great. I am thinking this mechanic will go far to differentiate cavalry archers from regular archers in use. Maybe as archer cavalry rank up, they can shoot more accurately or at a higher fire rate while moving, as obviously it would take a lot of experience to improve with shooting while galloping.

Four questions for everybody who wants to contribute an opinion:

  • Should moving while shooting be less accurate, less range, less damage, or less fire rate?
  • Should mounted archers improve this ability as they rank up?
  • Should cavalry/chariot javelineers be capable of this as well?, and should the mechanic have special rules for them?
  • Should chariot based units be better at shooting while moving? I would argue sure since chariot units are champions, and they are already expensive.

I think it is important to make sure that there are advantages to shooting while moving and shooting while stationary, this way it is a more skillful gameplay decision on how to use ranged cavalry.

 

I disagree. They're horse archers not dragoons. If a player uses them to shoot while stationary, then they're playing it wrong. And watching their horse archers get rekt by foot archers should teach them. Should be as simple as that.

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5 hours ago, PyrrhicVictoryGuy said:

How would one counter these units? Wouldn't they be frustrating to go against? Total war has it so foot archers counter these mounted troops while other RTS have units like these that are made of paper...

according to the history Parthians They were defeated by the Romans after Carrhae bringing more missile troops as slingers.

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1 minute ago, Dragonoar said:

I disagree. They're horse archers not dragoons. If a player uses them to shoot while stationary, then they're playing it wrong. And watching their horse archers get rekt by foot archers should teach them. Should be as simple as that.

Nam PTSD intensifies....

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1 hour ago, Player of 0AD said:

I'm against changes. Cavalry archers are not too weak.

It might be more realistic if they can also shoot while moving... but its bad for the game, because that would be totally OP and annoying.

It is true that horse archers are more powerful than regular archers, and adding this mechanic to them will make them more powerful. However, it is undeniable that there is potential added value for gameplay as well as realism. Which brings me to Dragonoar's point below.

1 hour ago, Dragonoar said:

What about giving them shorter range than the regular archer?

Horse riding takes balance and it is my guess that it is harder to shoot at the same rate as when you are stationary. Also I think bigger bows are stronger (provided other construction qualities are constant), and would tend to shoot farther, so it makes sense in general that horse archers should have shorter range. This is not a balance problem since horse archers are faster than regular archers. I feel going for a 1.5x multiplier to attack repeat time and an accuracy nerf while moving should be enough to balance the "shooting while moving" aspect.

@Player of 0AD I know that horse archers are pretty OP in a24 and likely a25, but doing this is a way to fix them in the long term. The goal is to make the unit more distinct in usage, and to add skill depth to the unit. We are fortunate that we can add some realism while helping gameplay.

I initially wanted to consider this mechanic for skirmisher cavalry but I am not so sure now...

 

Edited by BreakfastBurrito_007
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36 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Horse riding takes balance and it is my guess that it is harder to shoot at the same rate as when you are stationary. Also I think bigger bows are stronger (provided other construction qualities are constant), and would tend to shoot farther, so it makes sense in general that horse archers should have shorter range. This is not a balance problem since horse archers are faster than regular archers. I feel going for a 1.5x multiplier to attack repeat time and an accuracy nerf while moving should be enough to balance the "shooting while moving" aspect.

 

I'd rather have reduced attack than reduced accuracy. Having your shots miss is just annoying in all kinds of games. I personally dislike RNGs in my games.

Also, that attack speed nerf seems unnecessary. Ultimately it's the first shot of a massed horse archers that matters.

You're not planning to use them against buildings/siege, right?

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57 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I initially wanted to consider this mechanic for skirmisher cavalry but I am not so sure now...

 

I think most javelineers would prefer to throw the javelin in front of them. 

However, we can give this mechanic to chariots only, not other cavalry archers. 

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7 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

I think most javelineers would prefer to throw the javelin in front of them. 

However, we can give this mechanic to chariots only, not other cavalry archers. 

PSssss, if anyone were to make a bronze age mod then you'd have an excuse to make  Achaean chariot javalineers  shoot while moving....

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We also need to distinguish chariots from lone horses. 

2 minutes ago, PyrrhicVictoryGuy said:

PSssss, if anyone were to make a bronze age mod then you'd have an excuse to make  Achaean chariot javalineers  shoot while moving....

Aristeia. I made the Bronze age Egyptian mod. 

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