==[Debate]== Should Mauryan and Persian population bonus should be removed

[alre]

3 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Again, if the Persians wanted to use meatshields, they hired Greeks for that purpose.

If we are talking meatshields against line infantry, then you are right. If we are talking about meatshields against arrows, their shield bearers were just perfect. You can see my proposed changes are no better than of current game meetshields, and that all other melee units would smash them.

1 hour ago, Yekaterina said:

Persians have no mercenary units in A24. Maybe let them hire mercenary hoplites?

Back in A23 they had Kardaces skirmisher and Kardaces spearmen

Persian empire hired hoplites many times in their history. Most notable one was a whole army of eleven thousands (Anabasis).

Edited July 4, 2021 by alre
more precise

[Yekaterina]

2 hours ago, alre said:

Persian empire hired hoplites many times in their history. Most notable one was a whole army of eleven thousands (Anabasis).

Exactly! So why were the Kardaces units removed? We should let the Persians hire mercenary units. 

Mauryans have no mercenary units neither. We should remove the pop bonus and let them hire more diverse troops as a compensation. 

Edited July 4, 2021 by Yekaterina

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

5 hours ago, alre said:

If we are talking meatshields against line infantry, then you are right. If we are talking about meatshields against arrows, their shield bearers were just perfect. You can see my proposed changes are no better than of current game meetshields, and that all other melee units would smash them.

If directional armour were in place, I would definitely agree with that, but it isn't at the moment.  Considering the fact that the shield can only cover a limited amount of the body, that alone should not be factored in the equation.  It doesn't matter how big your shield is if it is pointed in the wrong direction, and hoplites would clearly have the advantage.  That all said, I think that Persian spearmen should be a cost effective ranged meatshield, just not necessarily much better than other on a one-to-one comparison level.

On a different note I would say that I am definitely in the camp in favour of mercenary hoplites being available for Persian recruitment.

[Yekaterina]

1 hour ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

On a different note I would say that I am definitely in the camp in favour of mercenary hoplites being available for Persian recruitment.

You will see this in your mod.  

What should I call them, just Mercenary hoplites?

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

1 hour ago, Yekaterina said:

You will see this in your mod.  

What should I call them, just Mercenary hoplites?

Cool.  That sounds good enough.  Also, you were wondering about the kardakes.  Essentially the role they were given was not really historically informed, making them be removed.

[Yekaterina]

From a good player:

Edited July 5, 2021 by Yekaterina

[Yekaterina]

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@Yekaterina I don't know if you did a good enough job of scratching out the name of the player XD. This player's point about the power of the pop bonus being nearly the free equivalent of a wonder. 

The player makes a good point about the status effect champions, but at least for iberians, their champion does not have as good a hero as Boudicca to empower them.

If it becomes possible, I think it would be cool to allow ranged chariot units to shoot independently from their movement perhaps at a reduced accuracy, range and/or fire rate. if you click to attack a unit normally, it is a normal stationary attack, but if you are moving and the unit sees an enemy it will shoot at it without changing its velocity. 

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

10 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

If it becomes possible, I think it would be cool to allow ranged chariot units to shoot independently from their movement perhaps at a reduced accuracy, range and/or fire rate. if you click to attack a unit normally, it is a normal stationary attack, but if you are moving and the unit sees an enemy it will shoot at it without changing its velocity. 

Or maybe something like this?

 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone  It is a cool feature to have the units hop off the chariot when the horses die, but I was talking about having the unit in the back of the chariot launching projectiles even if the chariot is moving, just at some decreased stats from when told to attack a particular target.

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

Just now, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

@wowgetoffyourcellphone  It is a cool feature to have the units hop off the chariot when the horses die, but I was talking about having the unit in the back of the chariot launching projectiles even if the chariot is moving, just at some decreased stats from when told to attack a particular target.

Perfect for a scythian or sarmatian civ

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

8 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

@wowgetoffyourcellphone  It is a cool feature to have the units hop off the chariot when the horses die, but I was talking about having the unit in the back of the chariot launching projectiles even if the chariot is moving, just at some decreased stats from when told to attack a particular target.

I agree. Also, cool for the Elephant Archer dudes to shoot at random nearby enemies, as long as the chariot or ele isn't specifically tasked to target a specific unit.

[Stan`]

I mean it works it's just not looking good

I think orders are not forwarded though a bit like defense towers.

[Yekaterina]

1 hour ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

@wowgetoffyourcellphone  It is a cool feature to have the units hop off the chariot when the horses die, but I was talking about having the unit in the back of the chariot launching projectiles even if the chariot is moving, just at some decreased stats from when told to attack a particular target.

I have made this thing: when the unit is in the chariot, it can shoot constantly at a target but with low accuracy (like a siege tower), then, you can order the infantry to jump off the chrariot. At this point the infantry has a much higher accuracy but loses the protection and speed of the chariot. 

Basically I edited the template of a siege tower and put a chariot actor onto it  

[alre]

1 hour ago, Yekaterina said:

I have made this thing: when the unit is in the chariot, it can shoot constantly at a target but with low accuracy (like a siege tower), then, you can order the infantry to jump off the chrariot. At this point the infantry has a much higher accuracy but loses the protection and speed of the chariot. 

Basically I edited the template of a siege tower and put a chariot actor onto it  

This is great but I think that asking to micromanage garrison of chariots is too much, chariots shout come out the factory fully garrisoned. I think that what Wow did goes plenty in that direction, but a solution should be find for the problems about directioning fire and UnitAI.

[av93]

About the OP, I would say that better to have different bonus for every civ. If Han have to be implemented, the bonus could be given only to them (China have places with good climate, and rice have more calories than wheat)

Edited July 6, 2021 by av93

[Yekaterina]

Yes Han should have 10% bonus by default. They are really OP right now. Their ownly weakness is no rams nor elephants, I guess that nerf will compensate for all of their other OP-ness

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

30 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

Yes Han should have 10% bonus by default. They are really OP right now. Their ownly weakness is no rams nor elephants, I guess that nerf will compensate for all of their other OP-ness

 

The rams thing sounds like our carelessness when the faction was made.

 

But the contest of the entire project is that each faction has a melee (ram) or just guys using a log as battering ram siege engine.

[Yekaterina]

12 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

But the contest of the entire project is that each faction has a melee (ram) or just guys using a log as battering ram siege engine.

Chinese did have ram technology but did not use it that often. I think they preferred mangonel, catapult and trebuchet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_siege_weapons 

[LienRag]

Anything that help differentiates a civilization from others should certainly not be removed...

Nerfed maybe, or given to another Civilization is the one benefiting from it now is too powerful, but never removed.