Looking for some help from historians

[Grapjas]

Hi,

Currently i'm working on giving some units a secondary attack in my mod. It's making progress, but realism is of great importance for me. So i'm wondering if historians on this forum would like to help providing references on what extra weapon(s) these soldiers would have had in their kit for that civilization. All units are open for discussion but the units that have priority would be the following:

• Javelineers (both cavalry and infantry)
• Slingers
• Archers (both cavalry and infantry)

I'm also looking for references on how much ammo ranged soldiers would carry with them. Currently i have it like this: Javelineer 5, Archers 24, Slingers 50. 

Thanks in advance  

Edited March 18, 2021 by Grapjas

[azayrahmad]

I'm not a historian, but gameplay-wise every 0 AD unit already has knife for slaughtering purpose.

Xenophon said that Peltast (javelineers) use swords as secondary weapon. He also recommends kopis/makhaira for horsemen instead of xiphos.

You probably have seen this Survival mod by @Angen , otherwise this might help you as it has secondary weapon concept:

 

 

[Grapjas]

1 hour ago, azayrahmad said:

I'm not a historian, but gameplay-wise every 0 AD unit already has knife for slaughtering purpose.

Xenophon said that Peltast (javelineers) use swords as secondary weapon. He also recommends kopis/makhaira for horsemen instead of xiphos.

You probably have seen this Survival mod by @Angen , otherwise this might help you as it has secondary weapon concept:

 

 

Thanks, yeah im aware of that mod. But i'm just looking for historical references in battle kits used by soldiers in that time for that civ. Wiki isnt reliable if it mentions no sources imo (and in this case it often doesnt mention sources), so thats where i really need help. The plan is to make the weapons visible on them at all times, and actually make them switch weapons (which already works).

[thankforpieOfficial]

16 hours ago, Grapjas said:

Hi,

Currently i'm working on giving some units a secondary attack in my mod. It's making progress, but realism is of great importance for me. So i'm wondering if historians on this forum would like to help providing references on what extra weapon(s) these soldiers would have had in their kit for that civilization. All units are open for discussion but the units that have priority would be the following:

• Javelineers (both cavalry and infantry)
• Slingers
• Archers (both cavalry and infantry)

I'm also looking for references on how much ammo ranged soldiers would carry with them. Currently i have it like this: Javelineer 5, Archers 24, Slingers 50. 

Thanks in advance  

in bannerlord low level javelin characters carry 5 spears and higher level can carry up to 10-20 (not sure actually, mb 10)

 

Edited March 19, 2021 by thankforpieOfficial

[Lion.Kanzen]

@Nescio

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

Undoubtedly most soldiers did carry side-arms, but ammunition is a more difficult thing to consider since armies at this time were not standardised.  What might have served as the amount of missiles a soldier carried in one campaign might vary with the next.  

One interesting example of a case of reverse side-arms is mentioned in Xenophon's Anabasis, when a few Rhodian hoplites switched to using slings.

 

[av93]

1 hour ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

One interesting example of a case of reverse side-arms is mentioned in Xenophon's Anabasis, when a few Rhodian hoplites switched to using slings.

 

that breaks all stereotypes, interesting.

[Grapjas]

2 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Undoubtedly most soldiers did carry side-arms, but ammunition is a more difficult thing to consider since armies at this time were not standardised.  What might have served as the amount of missiles a soldier carried in one campaign might vary with the next.  

One interesting example of a case of reverse side-arms is mentioned in Xenophon's Anabasis, when a few Rhodian hoplites switched to using slings.

 

That's quite interesting indeed. Could make the Rhodian hoplite as a mercenary or a special limited unit in my mod. And give them slings along with the ordanary hoplite kit with less ammo and range (i assume they had full armor on?) than a normal lightweight slinger. Is it known why only a few did this? Were they men with more skill than others for example (because in this case i would make it a special rank)?

And yeah i figured the ammo would be hard to figure out. Would be interesting to know if like for example nubian archers carried bigger quivers with them than the mauryan archers. Would love to add such small details, even if it's like a 2 arrow difference in ammo.

Edited March 19, 2021 by Grapjas

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

54 minutes ago, Grapjas said:

That's quite interesting indeed. Could make the Rhodian hoplite as a mercenary or a special limited unit in my mod. And give them slings along with the ordanary hoplite kit with less ammo and range (i assume they had full armor on?) than a normal lightweight slinger. Is it known why only a few did this? Were they men with more skill than others for example (because in this case i would make it a special rank)?

Xenophon is fairly vague on what they did with their other equipment.  As to range, these were troops using lead projectiles, which generally went a lot further than typical slung stones. Fun fact as well, it was not unheard of to inscribe messages on these.  The one to the right could be roughly translated as 'catch.'

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Keep in mind that in reality it was probably quite common for ranged troops to pick up ammunition off the ground from missiles fired at them by the enemy!  

[Grapjas]

10 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

these were troops using lead projectiles

Just to double check, you mean the Rhodian hoplites were using lead projectiles? Or did you mean slingers in general? I was aware of these lead projectiles but i still thought stones found on terrain were more common (which is exactly why im removing stone cost for slingers). The plan for slingers right now is, they regain ammo anywhere slowly (to sort of mimic finding stones, thus regaining ammo), while other ranged can re-arm at military buildings. In any case, lead projectiles could serve well as a tech in the forge. Giving slingers more range and more attack but as a drawback they would need to re-arm at the military buildings from that point on.

I also wonder if romans should have slingers aswell, and removing javelineers for them but giving the champion and/or basic swordsman 1 or 2 jav ammo.

9 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Keep in mind that in reality it was probably quite common for ranged troops to pick up ammunition off the ground from missiles fired at them by the enemy!  

Thanks for the suggestion, i was aware

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

14 minutes ago, Grapjas said:

Just to double check, you mean the Rhodian hoplites were using lead projectiles? Or did you mean slingers in general? I was aware of these lead projectiles but i still thought stones found on terrain were more common

The Rhodians in this case definitely were.  Xenophon seems to write about it as an exception to the rule, however, not the norm.  As to removing Roman javelin throwers, that would be ahistorical.  Velites served an integral role in the initial phases of battle, but their sword infantry should definitely have javelins.

Edited March 20, 2021 by Thorfinn the Shallow Minded

[Loki1950]

All slingers used lead projectiles most carried their own mould for casting new pellets it's a fairly common find archaeologically on all ancient battle sites.

Enjoy the Choice     

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

10 hours ago, Loki1950 said:

All slingers used lead projectiles most carried their own mould for casting new pellets it's a fairly common find archaeologically on all ancient battle sites.

That statement is incorrect.  Xenophon explicitly states that Persians used stones.  

[Grapjas]

@Thorfinn the Shallow Minded, i was wondering if you have any information on how siege engines, more specifically the stone throwing ones,  actually got their ammo. Were there like carts of ammo available nearby? 

Edit: Also found some interesting stories about bowmen actually carrying two quivers which could lead up to a total of ~100 arrows at the ready, though that was in a later time period (not sure if that really matters when it comes to quivers).

Edited March 21, 2021 by Grapjas

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

2 hours ago, Grapjas said:

i was wondering if you have any information on how siege engines, more specifically the stone throwing ones,  actually got their ammo. Were there like carts of ammo available nearby? 

Usually siege weapons were built on site, and ammunition probably was improvised based on the available materials the engineers could use.  When Demetrius was attempting to besiege Rhodes, he hired a large number of specialists from Asia Minor and imported materials for the construction of his mother of all siege engines.  

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

13 minutes ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Usually siege weapons were built on site, and ammunition probably was improvised based on the available materials the engineers could use.  When Demetrius was attempting to besiege Rhodes, he hired a large number of specialists from Asia Minor and imported materials for the construction of his mother of all siege engines.  

Perhaps siege engines should be built by soldiers. Either after researching a tech or unlocked by building an Arsenal. 

[Grapjas]

26 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Perhaps siege engines should be built by soldiers. Either after researching a tech or unlocked by building an Arsenal. 

Wouldn't mind adding a unique 'engineer' unit trainable at the arsenal. Soldiers could make crappy siege, but engineers of much better quality (attack/def/hp boosts)

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

35 minutes ago, Grapjas said:

Wouldn't mind adding a unique 'engineer' unit trainable at the arsenal. Soldiers could make crappy siege, but engineers of much better quality (attack/def/hp boosts)

A simpler approach might just be a matter of limitations.  Soldiers could only construct battering rams.  Also sappers could have a high base attack against buildings.

[Grapjas]

11 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

sappers

Could you give some more info about these? Would sappers be the one that build engines aswell or should i make that a different unit?

Edited March 22, 2021 by Grapjas

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

6 minutes ago, Grapjas said:

Could you give some more info about these? Would sappers be the one that build engines aswell or should i make that a different unit?

Sapper is just an alternative term for military engineer.  

[alre]

I am no historian, sorry about that. Anyway, I subscribe fully the idea of soldiers building rams and siege towers, and I would rather not introduce engineers, that look like unnecessary micro to me. If a soldier can build a house, he can also build a ram.

I think a lot of ancient soldiers (like nowadays soldiers) were able to handle many different weapons, maybe both on horseback and on foot, and used what they had to, depending on what was required of them, and what was their favourite tool. Ideally, a lot of soldiers in any civ quiver should be able to choose from various different equipments, and change it on many occasions, mount a horse or go on foot, ecc. In practice, RTS generally make it a whole lot simpler, for gameplay reasons. A rhodian slinger-hoplite would have to choose between shooting and charging, while simple division between slingers and hoplites avoids the problem.

In general, though, I'd love to see swordmen, like roman legionaries, throw javelins before charging. I don't think that would affect gameplay too much.

[Grapjas]

1 hour ago, alre said:

I am no historian, sorry about that. Anyway, I subscribe fully the idea of soldiers building rams and siege towers, and I would rather not introduce engineers, that look like unnecessary micro to me. If a soldier can build a house, he can also build a ram.

Just to be clear, this thread is not about putting changes into the main game, this is about adding stuff to my personal mod. It's about adding realism and will be a complete rebalance. Also for me personally its realism/strategy > micro. Especially if its worth it putting the effort in.

Edited March 22, 2021 by Grapjas

[alre]

ok, sorry. However, I don't think we have evidence of such military engineers in any civilization predating romans anyway. Soldiers did build houses and rams alike.

Edited March 23, 2021 by alre

[Genava55]

For building siege engines, more than engineers, it needs officers to coordinate the work. Engineers in the Roman army were also officers if I recall correctly.

By looking at Vitruvius wikipedia page, you can get a good grasp of the topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitruvius