War Elephants

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Could we scale them up in-game? They seem a little small to me. That way we could do cool things like have 2 or 3 dudes in a howdah.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

[Stan`]

@Alexandermb

[Alexandermb]

Scale up asian elephant only?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

  On 16/05/2020 at 5:36 PM, Alexandermb said:

Scale up asian elephant only?

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I think the Asian elephant is too small, yes. Should only be 2 or 3 hands shorter than the African Bush elephant. We can also justify it by saying they used the biggest and strongest elephants for war. 

[Alexandermb]

Yeh its possible whitout too much trouble i belive, only reexport the animations and the armature. And yes, is barely larger than ptolemaic elephant so it doesn't make a huge difference 

[Nescio]

  On 16/05/2020 at 5:36 PM, Alexandermb said:

Scale up asian elephant only?

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Yes. Seleucids (and Persians and Bactrians) got their elephants from India, and Greek texts (e.g. Polybius 5.84) make it clear those were vastly superior and larger than the African elephants used by the Ptolemies.

The Ptolemies obtained their elephants from what is now Eritrea and shipped them by sea (enormous facilities and elephant remains have been found in Berenice Troglodytica, a Red Sea port in southern Egypt). They also loaned some elephants to Pyrrhus of Epirus, who used them against Carthaginians on Sicily, Romans in Italy, Greeks in the Peloponnese, etc.

Afterwards Carthage started its own elephant corps, capturing elephants from the forested Atlas mountain ranges (now in Morocco and Northern Algeria); after the defeat of Carthage the Romans took those elephants with them (Scipio kept them in reserve at the Battle of Magnesia (190 BC) against the Seleucids).

Anyway, those African elephants were not African forest elephants (Loxodonta cyclotis, native to Congo), but simply smaller subspecies of the African bush elephants (Loxodonta africana). A modern audience is probably more familiar with the elephants from the East African savannas (Kenya, Tanzania, Mozambique, South Africa), which can indeed be larger than the Indian elephants (Elephas maximus).

  On 16/05/2020 at 5:32 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

That way we could do cool things like have 2 or 3 dudes in a howdah.

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Ideally their turrets should be large enough for four soldiers (pikeman, archer, two javelineers). And maybe a lighter bamboo platform accommodating up to six archers to replace the Mauryan elephant archer.

We probably have to wait until proper code supporting turrets is committed.

 

[EDIT]: 0 A.D. could also use proper infant actors for the Indian elephant (currently baby African elephant actors are used as a placeholder).

Edited May 16, 2020 by Nescio
infant

[Ultimate Aurelian]

  On 16/05/2020 at 5:32 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

 

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I wonder if those pictures of elephants with armored legs are accurate; it seems the source is this statue:

 

They are limited to the lower leg and cover less than most modern depiction, maybe the artist was trying to depict the folds on elephant's knees  ?

Mughal examples cover almost the whole body but not the legs:

Interesting discussion on another forum:

http://theminiaturespage.com/news/talk/msg.mv?id=708758

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by Ultimate Aurelian

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

  On 16/05/2020 at 11:53 PM, m7600 said:

I don't think you can take down a stampeding elephant by attacking its legs.

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On the contrary, that was one of the chief ways of taking down a war elephant. They used to use axes and chop at the elephant's legs and hamstrings.

[Ultimate Aurelian]

  On 16/05/2020 at 11:53 PM, m7600 said:

Hmm... I never noticed that. Good eye! It's certainly weird if you think about it. If you are going to put armor on your elephant, why would you only cover the lower legs? Strange.

That seems to be the case. 

But the armor thing intrigued me. Would it have been really necessary for elephants on the battlefield to have leg armor? I'm not an expert on this, but I don't think you can take down a stampeding elephant by attacking its legs. These are not horses. If an elephant charged, I imagine that the most reasonable thing to do would be to get out of its way, and only attack it once it has finished stampeding.

 

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A higher res  image of the statue:

Legs and neck have similar patterns so it may be creases on the skin; it may be possible that they focused on the lower leg due to being easier to reach but not very likely in my opinion. You could easily reach the uncovered parts with a spear; as discussed on the thread i posted there is alsoso the issue of how to attach the defenses and if they hinder movement.

This picture depicts the pattern on the neck as a throat protection:

Also does not make much sense; scale elephant armor is know to have existed but the elephant in the sculpture has none (Why cover the neck but expose the sides and belly ? The later are easier targets than the throat).

Edited May 17, 2020 by Ultimate Aurelian

[Nescio]

Here are five pages with information on Hellenistic war chariots and elephants from The Cambridge History of Greek and Roman Warfare  (Cambridge 2008):

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And five pages with images of war elephants from B. Bar-Kochva Judas Maccabeus : The Jewish Struggle against the Seleucids (Cambridge 1989):

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[Nescio]

 Polybius' account on the Battle of Raphia (217 BC) provides valuable information on elephant warfare.

First the size of the Ptolemaic army (Plb 5.79.2):

οἱ μὲν οὖν περὶ τὸν Πτολεμαῖον ὥρμησαν ἐκ τῆς Ἀλεξανδρείας, ἔχοντες πεζῶν μὲν εἰς ἑπτὰ μυριάδας, ἱππεῖς δὲ πεντακισχιλίους, ἐλέφαντας ἑβδομήκοντα τρεῖς·

Ptolemy accordingly set out from Alexandria with seventy thousand infantry, five thousand cavalry, and seventy-three elephants.

and the size of the Seleucid army (Plb 5.79.13):

καὶ τῆς μὲν Ἀντιόχου δυνάμεως τὸ πλῆθος ἦν πεζοὶ μὲν ἑξακισμύριοι καὶ δισχίλιοι, σὺν δὲ τούτοις ἱππεῖς ἑξακισχίλιοι, θηρία δὲ δυσὶ πλείω τῶν ἑκατόν.

so that the whole number of Antiochus's force was sixty-two thousand infantry, six thousand cavalry, and one hundred and two elephants.

Then there is a paragraph on elephants in battle (Plb 5.84):

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ἐπεὶ δὲ παριὼν ἧκε μετὰ τῆς ἀδελφῆς Πτολεμαῖος μὲν ἐπὶ τὸ πάσης τῆς σφετέρας παρατάξεως εὐώνυμον, Ἀντίοχος δὲ μετὰ τῆς βασιλικῆς ἴλης ἐπὶ τὸ δεξιόν, σημήναντες τὸ πολεμικὸν συνέβαλον πρῶτον τοῖς θηρίοις. [2] ὀλίγα μὲν οὖν τινα τῶν παρὰ Πτολεμαίου συνήρεισε τοῖς ἐναντίοις· ἐφ᾽ ὧν ἐποίουν ἀγῶνα καλὸν οἱ πυργομαχοῦντες, ἐκ χειρὸς ταῖς σαρίσαις διαδορατιζόμενοι καὶ τύπτοντες ἀλλήλους, ἔτι δὲ καλλίω τὰ θηρία, βιαιομαχοῦντα καὶ συμπίπτοντα κατὰ πρόσωπον αὑτοῖς. [3] ἔστι γὰρ ἡ τῶν ζῴων μάχη τοιαύτη τις. συμπλέξαντα καὶ παρεμβαλόντα τοὺς ὀδόντας εἰς ἀλλήλους ὠθεῖ τῇ βίᾳ, διερειδόμενα περὶ τῆς χώρας, ἕως ἂν κατακρατῆσαν τῇ δυνάμει θάτερον παρώσῃ τὴν θατέρου προνομήν· [4] ὅταν δ᾽ ἅπαξ ἐγκλῖναν πλάγιον λάβῃ, τιτρώσκει τοῖς ὀδοῦσι, καθάπερ οἱ ταῦροι τοῖς κέρασι. [5] τὰ δὲ πλεῖστα τῶν τοῦ Πτολεμαίου θηρίων ἀπεδειλία τὴν μάχην, ὅπερ ἔθος ἐστὶ ποιεῖν τοῖς Λιβυκοῖς ἐλέφασι· [6] τὴν γὰρ ὀσμὴν καὶ φωνὴν οὐ μένουσιν, ἀλλὰ καὶ καταπεπληγμένοι τὸ μέγεθος καὶ τὴν δύναμιν, ὥς γ᾽ ἐμοὶ δοκεῖ, φεύγουσιν εὐθέως ἐξ ἀποστήματος τοὺς Ἰνδικοὺς ἐλέφαντας· ὃ καὶ τότε συνέβη γενέσθαι. [7] τούτων δὲ διαταραχθέντων καὶ πρὸς τὰς αὑτῶν τάξεις συνωθουμένων, τὸ μὲν ἄγημα τὸ τοῦ Πτολεμαίου πιεζόμενον ὑπὸ τῶν θηρίων ἐνέκλινε, [8] τοῖς δὲ περὶ τὸν Πολυκράτην καὶ τοῖς ὑπὸ τοῦτον ἱππεῦσι διατεταγμένοις οἱ περὶ τὸν Ἀντίοχον ὑπὲρ τὰ θηρία περικερῶντες καὶ προσπίπτοντες ἐνέβαλον. ἅμα δὲ τούτοις, [9] τῶν ἐλεφάντων ἐντός, οἱ περὶ τὴν φάλαγγα τῶν Ἑλλήνων μισθοφόροι προσπεσόντες τοὺς τοῦ Πτολεμαίου πελταστὰς ἐξέωσαν, προσυγκεχυκότων ἤδη καὶ τὰς τούτων τάξεις τῶν θηρίων. [10] τὸ μὲν οὖν εὐώνυμον τοῦ Πτολεμαίου τοῦτον τὸν τρόπον πιεζόμενον ἐνέκλινε πᾶν

Ptolemy, accompanied by his sister, having arrived at the left wing of his army, and Antiochus with the royal guard at the right: they gave the signal for the battle, and opened the fight by a charge of elephants. Only some few of Ptolemy's elephants came to close quarters with the foe: seated on these the soldiers in the howdahs maintained a brilliant fight, lunging at and striking each other with crossed pikes. But the elephants themselves fought still more brilliantly, using all their strength in the encounter, and pushing against each other, forehead to forehead. The way in which elephants fight is this: they get their tusks entangled and jammed, and then push against one another with all their might, trying to make each other yield ground until one of them proving superior in strength has pushed aside the other's trunk; and when once he can get a side blow at his enemy, he pierces him with his tusks as a bull would with his horns. Now, most of Ptolemy's animals, as is the way with Libyan elephants, were afraid to face the fight: for they cannot stand the smell or the trumpeting of the Indian elephants, but are frightened at their size and strength, I suppose, and run away from them at once without waiting to come near them.
This is exactly what happened on this occasion: and upon their being thrown into confusion and being driven back upon their own lines, Ptolemy's guard gave way before the rush of the animals; while Antiochus, wheeling his men so as to avoid the elephants, charged the division of cavalry under Polycrates. At the same time the Greek mercenaries stationed near the phalanx, and behind the elephants, charged Ptolemy's peltasts and made them give ground, the elephants having already thrown their ranks also into confusion. Thus Ptolemy's whole left wing began to give way before the enemy.

And finally the outcome (Plb 5.86.6):

ἐλέφαντες δὲ τρεῖς μὲν παραχρῆμα, δύο δ᾽ ἐκ τῶν τραυμάτων ἀπέθανον. τῶν δὲ παρὰ Πτολεμαίου πεζοὶ μὲν εἰς χιλίους καὶ πεντακοσίους ἐτελεύτησαν, ἱππεῖς δ᾽ εἰς ἑπτακοσίους· τῶν δ᾽ ἐλεφάντων ἑκκαίδεκα μὲν ἀπέθανον, ᾑρέθησαν δ᾽ αὐτῶν οἱ πλείους.

Three elephants were killed on the field, and two died afterwards of their wounds. On Ptolemy's side the losses were fifteen hundred infantry killed and seven hundred cavalry: sixteen of his elephants were killed, and most of the others captured.

(Texts and translations taken from Perseus.)

Edited May 17, 2020 by Nescio
Raphia was in 217 BC, Magnesia in 190 BC

[Alexandermb]

A preview of how much was Scaled:

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[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I honestly think that is a great improvement in scale. I've always felt the game's war elephants to look kind of underwhelming in size.

 

Can you center the tower prop point a little more on the elephant's back? Right now it looks like it's sliding backward.

Edited May 18, 2020 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Alexandermb]

  On 18/05/2020 at 9:18 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I honestly think that is a great improvement in scale. I've always felt the game's war elephants to look kind of underwhelming in size.

 

Can you center the tower prop point a little more on the elephant's back? Right now it looks like it's sliding backward.

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@Stan` wondered about if footprint should be scaled, if that so. How much it will be changed to committ it ASAP with the template change,

[Sturm]

Now we've got War Mammoths, lol! Joking, it was a nice improvement!

[Alexandermb]

Adjusted turret position and also showing a Reflective enviroment bronze material direct render and see if its possible to render Stuff like bronze cuirasses and maybe armors or Scale mails with blender.

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Probably if it works continue the Secondary upwards scale texture for the seleucid variant for have multiple armoured elephants.

[Sturm]

Next step: War Oliphaunts! 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

  On 18/05/2020 at 10:47 PM, Alexandermb said:

Adjusted turret position and also showing a Reflective enviroment bronze material direct render and see if its possible to render Stuff like bronze cuirasses and maybe armors or Scale mails with blender.

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Probably if it works continue the Secondary upwards scale texture for the seleucid variant for have multiple armoured elephants.

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I've recently mused about asking for reflection maps for the engine or some kind of reflection material. I think though they wouldn't be much use except for elephant armor as you indicated. It would be nice to have for mods for certain. More code to maintain though.

[Alexandermb]

  On 18/05/2020 at 11:45 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I've recently mused about asking for reflection maps for the engine or some kind of reflection material. I think though they wouldn't be much use except for elephant armor as you indicated. It would be nice to have for mods for certain. More code to maintain though.

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it actually need it to make proper reflective stuff take its own piece of the cake and also for future additions like metallic surfaces on futuristic mods, otherwise we will have to rely on plain stuff and maybe theres someone who wanna to something like this and not using the hacky method of skybox only because maybe it will have a glitch in one opportunity.

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But at least a proper cubemap or fake enviroment wich only shows on white zones of the specular map would look good enough. Specially for roman helmets.

[Stan`]

chrome.zipFetching info...

There is still this material that was made by @wraitii maybe we could make something out of it.

[Nescio]

  On 18/05/2020 at 3:09 PM, Alexandermb said:

A preview of how much was Scaled:

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How large are they now? In reality, Indian elephants between 2 m and 3.5 m tall; assuming only the largest specimens were chosen, then let's say they would be about 3 m tall on average, i.e. about two-thirds higher than a man (1.8 m).

I vaguely recall @Stan` stating a 0 A.D. human (e.g. slave) was 2.1 Blender units high; that means the maur/pers/sele elephants should have the top of their head at about 3.5 Blender units, if we want realistic ratios. Because Greek sources emphasize the African (cart, ptol) elephants are significantly smaller, maybe give those a height of about 2.8 Blender units then. Just a suggestion; what matters more is that things look good in game.

[Genava55]

Elephant Size in Antiquity - DNA Evidence and the Battle of Raphia

http://www.steiner-verlag.de/fileadmin/Dateien/Steiner/Zeitschriften_Historia/Historia_2016_1_53-65_Charles.pdf

To give an idea of the actual size of an Indian elephant:

Edited May 19, 2020 by Genava55

[Alexandermb]

  On 19/05/2020 at 8:38 AM, Nescio said:

How large are they now? In reality, Indian elephants between 2 m and 3.5 m tall; assuming only the largest specimens were chosen, then let's say they would be about 3 m tall on average, i.e. about two-thirds higher than a man (1.8 m).

I vaguely recall @Stan` stating a 0 A.D. human (e.g. slave) was 2.1 Blender units high; that means the maur/pers/sele elephants should have the top of their head at about 3.5 Blender units, if we want realistic ratios. Because Greek sources emphasize the African (cart, ptol) elephants are significantly smaller, maybe give those a height of about 2.8 Blender units then. Just a suggestion; what matters more is that things look good in game.

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i don't follow too much blender units because some use Imperial Units and i use Metric Units, when i scale up things to be able to revert it if need i use Ctrl + S wich scales the object 0.1 or 1.0 depending on how much zoom the camera has with the enviroment.

I've only scaled 0.1 wich makes a little difference yet is more nociteable with ptolemy/carth elephants:

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So if unit is 2.04 Squares in blender 1.0000 Metric, that means Asian elephant is almost 2 units or 1.7 human units in game + 1 more on top for the turret.

[Trinketos]

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2020.
Continue using the imperial system
KEK