NoMaDiC CiViLiZaTiOnS

[Sundiata]

3 hours ago, Genava55 said:

The Scythians should have women amazon-like warriors with lasso abilities. Since this is a huge cultural group, they can easily have different reforms options like the Seleucid. For example Sarmatians cavalry lancers and Saka cataphracts for a traditionnal nomad reform or Bosporan thureophoros and Bosporan Daco-Thracian warriors for a crimean reform. The Bosporan units could even construct special hellenistic-like buildings.

That sounds pretty cool... Daco-Thracians, mmmm....

 

3 hours ago, Genava55 said:

The Huns could have the eagle ability proposed by Sundiata (awesome idea). For example a unit with an eagle vision ability or simply a better vision. 

Considering eagle hunting is most prevalent in Mongolia today, the Xiongnu should definitely have this ability if implementable (Chinese sources mention the practice), and there seems to be evidence for Scythians practicing it as well, making it a perfect general Nomadic civ trait, to help mitigate their lack of farming.

 

 

Seems to be another thing women excelled at. Female Eagle Huntresses:

Spoiler

 

The Eagle Huntress: Ancient Traditions and New Generations

By Adrienne Mayor mayor@stanford.edu May 1, 2016

https://web.stanford.edu/dept/HPS/EagleHuntress2016long.pdf

 

 

3 hours ago, Genava55 said:

The only thing is it ok for cavalry to have a building ability?

I don't see why? They weren't 100% horseback all the time. But when they campaign, it was all horses, so I think that created the impression they literally all ride horses all the time. In very general terms: even when migrating, there would have been a lot of walking involved as well. They have slow moving animals like sheep, goats and cattle and their carts don't usually travel at light speed either (and would need regular pushing, and pulling). Don't forget the old folk, pregnant women, and babies. Families and clans would usually have a highly mobile component of riders and a less mobile component: the household and the rest of the family. Everybody also forgets that they ruled over sedentary populations as well (Northern China, Tarim Basin, Sogdiana, Black Sea Coast etc). Especially at their height (Huns, Scythians and Xiongnu), the wealthier families/clans/tribes, whatever, had access to a lovely array of slaves whom I doubt would be given horses. 

Cavalry having a building ability reminds me of the Maurya elephant being able to build by itself. How did that ever pass the review? We were arguing about elephants' "siege" capabilities, meanwhile some of our elephants are freakin' architects, engineers and construction workers all in one, as well as being a mobile drop-site on top of that... Of course, for the Nomadic civs, I'd change my mind if dismounting units ever becomes a thing. 

Edited October 11, 2018 by Sundiata

[Stan`]

I see very well eagles as a ranged attack when #252 will be done. The unit would have a sword in melee and the falcon would just fly above her head, and if switched to ranged the falcon would attack. Should be restricted to slaughter attack I don't think they would waste an eagle in a battle.

[Sundiata]

10 minutes ago, stanislas69 said:

I don't think they would waste an eagle in a battle.

Mongol Eagle Warriors: special ability: Gouging out the enemies' eyes, reducing the attacked units' visibility by 90%, lol  

Would be a cool fantasy unit for some game someday... Assassin's Creed: Wrath of the Khans 

Spoiler

 

[Genava55]

12 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

I don't see why? They weren't 100% horseback all the time. But when they campaign, it was all horses, so I think that created the impression they literally all ride horses all the time. In very general terms: even when migrating, there would have been a lot of walking involved as well. They have slow moving animals like sheep, goats and cattle and their carts don't usually travel at light speed either (and would need regular pushing, and pulling). Don't forget the old folk, pregnant women, and babies. Families and clans would usually have a highly mobile component of riders and a less mobile component: the household and the rest of the family. Everybody also forgets that they ruled over sedentary populations as well (China, Tarim Basin, Sogdiana, Black Sea Coast etc). Especially at their height (Huns, Scythians and Xiongnu), the wealthier families/clans/tribes, whatever, had access to a lovely array of slaves whom I doubt would be given horses. 

Generally they used chariots/waggons in the case of women, especially the Scythians.
"At that season the Scythians who dwell inside the trench make warlike expeditions upon the ice, and even drive their waggons across to the country of the Sindians. Such is the intensity of the cold during eight months out of the twelve, and even in the remaining four the climate is still cool. " - Herodotus.

"The Scythians call themselves nomads as they have no houses but live in wagons. These are very small with four wheels. Others with six wheels are covered with felt; such wagons are employed like houses, in twos or threes and provide shelter from rain and wind [...] The women and children live in these wagons, but the men always remain on horseback. " - Hippocrates.

And clearly there is lower class without a horse but what is the normal nomad citizen? A horseman. If the normal greek citizen is a hoplite and the normal roman citizen a legionary, we shouldn't restrict the buildings function to only lower class. I don't think a dismounting function is planned. This is why I asked if it is possible to build for a horseman unit. But if it is not possible, we can let the footmen doing the job since they must do the mining and wood cutting as well. With the exception of the slaves, most of the nomadic warriors will be footmen, especially in the middle game. Gladly, there is still the option of huge husbandry trick for an early cavalry rush.

And yes there is sedentary populations as well, but they are not nomads anymore by definition. The Mongols of Temujin aren't culturally the same than the Mongols of Tamerlan.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

17 hours ago, Sundiata said:

@wowgetoffyourcellphone, two words: Eagle Hunting

I think it took out a fox in the video, but I've seen video's of these babies taking out wolves as well!!! Would make for a very unique specialized hunting unit. Wouldn't be simple to implement I assume, but sooo epic. Perhaps even as a scout unit, although I'm not sure whether they outfitted their eagles with go-pro's in the BC era. Might have to check up on that. 

 

10 hours ago, Genava55 said:

The Huns could have the eagle ability proposed by Sundiata (awesome idea). For example a unit with an eagle vision ability or simply a better vision

Nice guys, I think we all had the same idea simultaneously. I too thought about giving them a falcon scout unit, perhaps as their special starting unit.

 

6 hours ago, wackyserious said:

Also, we could add Falconry as a tech. It will boost meat gathering rate for the nomadic factions.

 Already in the git repo.  Yeah, give a vision and meat gathering bonus. Though, if I give them the falcon scout then I'd just reduce it to a meat gathering bonus.

 

6 hours ago, wackyserious said:

I suggest that you name the nomadic livestock bonus as pastoralism in contrast with sedentary animal husbandry. Nomads are more reliant to livestock than settled folks, thus making them more practiced in animal husbandry than the sedentary communities that prefer plant cultivation as a primary source of food, which they then supplement with livestock.

 Nomadic horse breeding tradition. Reduced training time for cavalry units too, compared with non-nomadic factions.

•  

Agreed all. 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I too had also thought to give their cavalry a build function. In the actor it would work just like the meat gathering does. The horse would stand aside while the rider goes to ground and hammers the foundation.

[Genava55]

https://www.docdroid.net/UAhXdak/xiongnu-combined.pdf

It seems that the Xiongnu did have some agricultural fields in the south-east border of their Empire where foreigners could settle. It wasn't really their own population but they were a kind of vassals the Xiongnu used to have enough food the winter, to have metals, textiles and others craftsmanship.

There is small walls even in pastoral fields and fortified small settlements probably to stock and protect food and goods.

The Xiongnu seems to have the same superior bow than the Huns.

Edit: to summary a bit what I see for the moment.

- The Scythians have a varied roster possible. From the Greek authors, there is mention of mounted javelinists and horse archers with the famous hit-and-retreat and ambush tactics. From archaeology, there is swords and pickaxes, spears, various squale armours and shields. The pickaxe is probably an answer against armours and must be an advantageous. The Sarmatians and the Eastern Scythians developed further heavy lancer cavalry and cataphracts. Normally each Scythians warriors, even armoured ones, have both bows and lances. Something to think about if the switching weapons is implemented one day. Crimean Scythians seem to be often separated from their northern Neighbors, having sometime a different king than the others Scythians. I suggest then for balance and historical reason to put the Crimean in a reform to be chosen with the further Sarmatian's development as an alternative. Since the Sarmatians destroyed the Crimean Scythians, it is logical that the player must chose between two different pathways.

- The Xiongnu is more obscur but several patterns seem to emerge and we can make reasonable assumptions. The Xiongnu built their empire on a multiethnic basis  with sedentarian populations in their border. They must have the possibility to built defensive fortifications and farms. Since the mod make the difference between civilian and militarian buildings, it should be possible to let sedentarian based units to build such civilian buildings. It would explain why sometimes the Xiongnu have a lot of infantry during the defense of their borders against the Han (although with a very mediocre efficiency). Contrary to others nomads cultures, the Xiongnu have inhabited on their territory for a very long time. The Xiongnu have superior "hunnic-like" bows, long double edged swords, spears and leather and iron squale armour. For their horses, it doesn't seem there is any cataphract, only padded linen and silk protection probably against the arrows can be guessed from archaeology. 

- The Huns are clearly the more mobiles and have clearly the best horse-archers. Not only because of their superior bows but also thanks to battle tactics. In the archaeology, the Huns seem similar to the Xiongnu but with indications they start using mail armour in Europe. They must be the best raiders. The possibility to hire Germanics units should give them better shock units both in cavalry and in infantry. There is not mention of any cataphract or any armoured horseman. The Avars (closely relatives to them) did have good lance cavalry. Attila was very good in siege warfare during his campaign against both eastern and western Romans.

Hierarchical classification, I suggest (to discuss):

Horse-archers - Huns > Xiongnu > Scythians

Close-combat cavalry - Scythians > Huns > Xiongnu

Armoured cavalry - Scythians with nomad reform > Xiongnu > Scythians with Crimean reform > Huns

Lancers cavalry - Scythians with nomad reform > Huns > Xiongnu > Scythians with Crimean reform

Combat infantry - Huns > Scythians with Crimean reform > Xiongnu >  Scythians with nomad reform

Archers infantry - Huns > Xiongnu > Scythians

Economy (self-production) - Xiongnu > Scythians > Huns

Economy (Raiding) - Huns > Xiongnu > Scythians

Siege abilities - Huns > Xiongnu > Scythians

Defensive structures - Xiongnu > Scythians with Crimean reform >> Scythians with nomad reform = Huns

 

This is clearly a matter of interpretation. 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Genava55

[Genava55]

A useful document for symbol faction and art (even if the author didn't take any precaution in distinguishing Scythian and Hunnic cultures):

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/259717838_Hun_Xiongnu_Scythian_Art

An Unesco's magazine special issue on the Scythians:

http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0007/000748/074829eo.pdf

Gold artistic goods in Tuva (Russia-Mongolian border)

https://journals.openedition.org/archeosciences/pdf/2193

Nomadic Art from the Eastern Eurasian Steppes

Spoiler

 

 

Spoiler

 

Edited October 13, 2018 by Genava55

[Genava55]

My suggestion for the faction symbols

Scythian, Kuban region North-East of the Black Sea, 6th century BC

For the Huns, from left to right:Germano-Hunnic 5th century AD in Romania, Germano-Hunnic 5th century AD in Italy, Scythians 5th Century BC in Altai (Russia), Scythians 5th Century BC in Tuetkin (Russia):

For the Xiongnu:

 

[Genava55]

Configurations of Steppe Urbanism: Permanent Centres of Pastoral Polities in Mongolia

Despite productive developments in archaeological approaches to urbanism, the study of constructed centers among steppe nomadic groups continues to receive cursory attention. Although the development of permanent centers of intensive social, economic, and ritual activities are often deemed incompatible with mobile lifeways and systems of pastoral production, revised considerations of the structures and environs of walled sites in early Inner Asia provide alternative notions of urban developments. Through a functional approach to urban centers and their sprawls, I propose that permanent settlement sites of the Xiongnu nomadic empire (2nd c. BCE – 2nd c. CE) were in fact complex built environments configured as expanded spatial occupations incorporating ritual arenas, production facilities, and key pastures. The case of central ‘urban’ places among early Inner Asian nomads thus highlights both the potency of urbanism approaches for studies of societal developments among steppe pastoralists and the potential for such groups to alter our understandings of the emergence and development of urban settings.

http://innerasiaresearch.org/seminar-–-27-october-–-bryan-millar/

In a review of Erik Hildinger's “Warriors of the Steppe”, Christopher Berg wrote: “The steppe warriors were nomads, who moved from one settlement to the next to accommodate their pastoral means of subsistence. The steppe warrior's natural proclivity for war springs from their peregrination: “War is therefore a natural consequence of successful nomadism and like any skill needed for survival it will be practiced to proficiency." The steppe nomads were successful conquerors for many reasons including their unpredictability, large number of male recruits, the ability to illicit fear, and drill-like organization. [Sources: “Warriors of the Steppe: A Military History of Central Asia 500BC to 1700AD” by Erik Hildinger (Da Capo Press, 1997); Christopher Berg, Sam Houston State University deremilitari.org /^\]

http://factsanddetails.com/asian/cat65/sub422/entry-5481.html

 

[Sundiata]

5 hours ago, Genava55 said:

Permanent Centres of Pastoral Polities

 

How funny, I just came across this interesting place called Por Bajin, or Por-Bazhyn, an 8th century Uighur palace/monastery in southern Siberia: https://archive.archaeology.org/1011/etc/letter.html?fbclid=IwAR2h-oaOCPGDk_vtnwE67TDOlHyFFAENcG_RqJtMpAGZ-ip0CX2uMZ7VKVo

Quote

Russia's most mysterious archaeological site dominates a small island in the center of a remote lake high in the mountains of southern Siberia. Here, just 20 miles from the Mongolian border, the outer walls of the medieval ruins of Por-Bajin still rise 40 feet high, enclosing an area of about seven acres criss-crossed with the labyrinthine remains of more than 30 buildings.

Por-Bajin ("Clay House" in the Tuvan language) was long thought to be a fortress built by the Uighurs, a nomadic Turkic-speaking people who once ruled an empire that spanned Mongolia and southern Siberia, and whose modern descendants now live mainly in western China. Archaeologists conducted limited and inconclusive excavations at the site in the 1950s and 1960s, but Irina Arzhantseva of the Russian Academy of Sciences is now digging here for the Por-Bajin Cultural Foundation to find out just when the complex was built and why. The few artifacts unearthed at the site seem to date it to the mid-eighth century A.D. During this period, Por-Bajin was on the periphery of the Uighur Empire, which lasted from A.D. 742 to 848 and was held together by forces of warriors on horseback.

...

States ruled by nomadic peoples often had symbiotic relationships with neighboring civilizations. In the Uighurs' case, China exerted a strong influence on their culture. The Uighurs even eventually adopted Manichaeism, a religion popular in China at the time that combined elements of Buddhism, Christianity, and Zoroastrianism, the Persian religion based on the teachings of the prophet Zoroaster. The site is highly reminiscent of Chinese ritual architecture of the Tang Dynasty (A.D. 618–907), so it's possible Por-Bajin might have had something to do with Manichaean rites.

...

The walls were made of a sophisticated type of wattle-and-daub covered with a high-quality plaster painted with a red and black strip along the base. 

 

Images:

Spoiler

 

[Genava55]

Super interesting. Thank you @Sundiata ! 

 

[Dakara]

Very good !

don't allow field and up the pillage ? just an idea

[Imarok]

On 10/8/2018 at 8:08 PM, (-_-) said:

Apparently, it wasn't that hard. Still need more stuff from GUI side though. Like tooltips and actually greying it out.

Edit: Might upload for vanilla too after cleaning it up. Really needs this option.

That would also be nice for the cart embassies. Currently they have an entitylimit of 3 (or such), but the original idea was to allow only two types built.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I think the nomadic civs should still get access to farm fields, but not access to the "Water Screw" tech which in Delenda Est reduces the build time and cost by half. Sure, focus them onto hunting and ranching, but don't completely remove the ability to farm. They certainly had the ability to do it, and especially made use of it from their vassals. 

Edited November 9, 2018 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Lion.Kanzen]

8 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I think the nomadic civs should still get access to farm fields, but not access to the "Water Screw" tech which in Delenda Est reduces the build time and cost by half. Sure, focus them onto hunting and ranching, but don't completely remove the ability to farm. They certainly had the ability to do it, and especially made use of it from their vassals. 

May be scess to field later than 1 phase.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

6 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

May be scess to field later than 1 phase.

Right, or both of our proposals. 

[Lion.Kanzen]

Just now, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Right, or both of our proposals. 

Exactly, they are looking to claim land.

[Genava55]

If you are looking for some mercenaries, I found very cool siberian pictures:

https://www.realmofhistory.com/2017/05/30/siberian-warrior-armor-reindeer-antlers/

Spoiler

 

Edited November 9, 2018 by Genava55

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

So, the current "falcon" model in the game being about the size of a Pteranodon, anyone willing to make a new falcon for DE/core game? That way I can make a falcon scout unit for the Xiongnu.  The current "falcon" in the game can be renamed to Golden Eagle. Some attack animations would be cool too, see Hyrule Conquest for a neat flying unit that attacks.

[av93]

3 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

So, the current "falcon" model in the game being about the size of a Pteranodon, anyone willing to make a new falcon for DE/core game? That way I can make a falcon scout unit for the Xiongnu.  The current "falcon" in the game can be renamed to Golden Eagle. Some attack animations would be cool too, see Hyrule Conquest for a neat flying unit that attacks.

Humble question, is there a real basis to make falcout as scout units? 

[Sundiata]

9 minutes ago, av93 said:

Humble question, is there a real basis to make falcout as scout units? 

Uhm, yes... I mean, have you never seen Mulan???

That's totally a legit reference, right?

 

[Loki1950]

To be fair the Mongols are still very good falconers but apart from magical communication with the bird what's the point just good for hunting.

Enjoy the Choice

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

2 hours ago, Sundiata said:

Uhm, yes... I mean, have you never seen Mulan???

That's totally a legit reference, right?

 

Didn't you originally support the idea?

[Sundiata]

5 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Didn't you originally support the idea?

I still do .

Quoting myself:

On 10/11/2018 at 1:28 AM, Sundiata said:

Would make for a very unique specialized hunting unit. Wouldn't be simple to implement I assume, but sooo epic. Perhaps even as a scout unit, although I'm not sure whether they outfitted their eagles with go-pro's in the BC era. Might have to check up on that. 

It's an abstraction, but a small one, in my opinion. Especially considering the million other abstractions that make no sense, eagle scouts seem more than intuitive enough. And fun...