Lion.Kanzen Posted June 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2018 Is there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted June 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2018 Can be nice revisit the web site. http://archeologie.culture.fr/gaulois-ardennes/fr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted June 24, 2018 Report Share Posted June 24, 2018 Yep 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundiata Posted June 24, 2018 Report Share Posted June 24, 2018 @stanislas69 Really cool! Good enough as wonder material? It has my vote What's up with the green walkway though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundiata Posted June 24, 2018 Report Share Posted June 24, 2018 (edited) Perhaps the pillars could be a tad bigger, rounder, and painted red, like the wall, also extending the red colour to the supporting logs of the superstructure above the gate? And sizing up to fit the footprint befitting of a wonder? Edited June 24, 2018 by Sundiata Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted June 25, 2018 Report Share Posted June 25, 2018 It doesn't look like it on the picture but it's already pretty big. The green walkway was an experiment with the moldy stone texture. I could try with red pillars though I don't know if it would make sense considering we do not do that anywhere else in the gaul civ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundiata Posted June 25, 2018 Report Share Posted June 25, 2018 1 hour ago, stanislas69 said: It doesn't look like it on the picture but it's already pretty big. I was wondering that, since I haven't actually seen it in perspective 1 hour ago, stanislas69 said: I could try with red pillars though I don't know if it would make sense considering we do not do that anywhere else in the gaul civ True, I was just thinking, since it's a potential wonder it could be a little punchier. If you or someone else decides to make the sanctuary of Gournay sur Aronde as a new temple, the red pillars could be repeated there. In Genava's image of the marketplace, it also has a red band running across the lower part of the outside walls. If you magically suddenly have nothing to do, a new Gallic CC based more on de Pâture du Couvent at Bibracte, you could also incorporate some reds there? Spoiler Just suggestions though. I know you're a busy man. I don't consider these things all that important, just some personal preferences of mine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wowgetoffyourcellphone Posted June 25, 2018 Report Share Posted June 25, 2018 The temple is based on this structure. Perhaps a remodel of the temple then too (the Britons can keep the current temple, since their Wonder is not Corent, and the Gauls would need something new). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted June 25, 2018 Report Share Posted June 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Sundiata said: True, I was just thinking, since it's a potential wonder it could be a little punchier. If you or someone else decides to make the sanctuary of Gournay sur Aronde as a new temple, the red pillars could be repeated there. Okay. Maybe I'll get some motivation this week. 1 hour ago, Sundiata said: In Genava's image of the marketplace, it also has a red band running across the lower part of the outside walls. If you magically suddenly have nothing to do, a new Gallic CC based more on de Pâture du Couvent at Bibracte, you could also incorporate some reds there? What part of the building should the cc be ? 58 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said: The temple is based on this structure. Perhaps a remodel of the temple then too (the Britons can keep the current temple, since their Wonder is not Corent, and the Gauls would need something new). Yeah I'm planning that using the previous off. If you have suggestions btw feel free to share 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundiata Posted June 25, 2018 Report Share Posted June 25, 2018 2 hours ago, stanislas69 said: What part of the building should the cc be ? Here's a very simple quick mock up I made loosely based on the Pâture du Couvent at Bibracte What do you guys think? Terracotta roof tiles are known from a number of Celtic sites, but they are rare, so wooden shingles (and perhaps planks) would be better roofing material. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted June 25, 2018 Report Share Posted June 25, 2018 That's too big for a Civic Center :/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundiata Posted June 25, 2018 Report Share Posted June 25, 2018 Just now, stanislas69 said: That's too big for a Civic Center :/ Just scale it down to the size you need, lol! Shorter walls, smaller courtyard, whatever you like.. It was just a suggestion though I think it has a more noble/princely/oppidum feeling. The current CC looks more like a (somewhat well off) farmstead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genava55 Posted June 25, 2018 Report Share Posted June 25, 2018 20 hours ago, stanislas69 said: @Genava55 have looked at the following threads ? There are some common references to your pdf, nice work btw. Yes I have seen it, but there is often a mix of Gallic and Britonic reconstructions, often pictures without any sources (where and when?) and I prefere to centralize the informations, it gives a better idea of the architecture and of the evolution. 0 A.D. is a game, it is impossible to get everything totally accurate, you need to have an artistic imagination to make a Gallic military barrack since this thing never existed. To get this imagination, you need to have an overview of the whole picture. From the items of everyday life to complex sanctuaries and fortifications. 18 hours ago, Sundiata said: @Genava55, very nice pdf... Let me add a few artists' interpretations (feel free to scrutinize) Hide contents Manching (Germany): Corent Bibracte: Entremont : Parisii Oppidum With Corent Sanctuary?? Heuneburg (Germany, mostly Halstatt): Others: @stanislas69 Didn't you already make the sanctuary at Corent?? Since Stonehenge is such a terrible choice for the Gallic wonder (don't get me wrong it's a gorgeous model, just totally wrong), wouldn't the Corent sanctuary be a much better choice? Reveal hidden contents Since monumental architecture wasn't much of a thing in Gaul, I elect the Corent sanctuary for Wonder: I really think the sanctuary of Gournay sur Aronde should replace the current Gallic temple... This one looks way more authentic. This would indeed make for a really lovely market place Thx a lot, there is a couple of pictures I didn't have. But the problem with pictures on internet is that people never put the sources and the basic informations (what, where and when). For example, a lot of peoples are using the illustration of J.-C. Golvin of Bibracte while he is mostly depicting a gallo-roman town. And about the Parisii oppidum, it is clearly a fraud and a plagiarism. It comes from someone that is unrelated to the archeologic world http://pierregable.fr/portfolio/oppidum-gaulois/ 19 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said: My last name is Durón is why I'm very curious. I checked a bit more the opinion of Delamarre and the debate around Octodurus. It seems his opinion is that "Duron/Durum" is meaning a closed place of trading under the control of a local aristocrat, by opposition with "magos" that means a open-field market. It's a recent debate, started in the 2000s, it is probably why it didn't reach english literature yet. The main argument of his view is a better coherence with the archeological findings where a lot of place have "-durum" in their name without any evidence of fortification. It could even explained why the Romans renamed sometimes the places in a "forum" version. And why "Dur-" is related to a door, as was "foris" for the Romans. "Duron" should have a similar meaning for the Gauls than the Forum for the Romans. Espero que estés satisfecho. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genava55 Posted June 25, 2018 Report Share Posted June 25, 2018 7 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said: The temple is based on this structure. Perhaps a remodel of the temple then too (the Britons can keep the current temple, since their Wonder is not Corent, and the Gauls would need something new). I think the sanctuary of Corent is best suited for the role of a temple. Since it was a place where the rituals were regularly performed and inside an urban area. What could have been a wonder building for the Gauls is the Sanctuary of Ribemont-sur-Acre. It is very bloody but it seems this is a place regularly visited and maintained without a lot of rituals. We can maybe mix this sanctuary with the one of Gournay-sur-Aronde. Since they are both symbols of victory, I think it is the best solution. 6 hours ago, stanislas69 said: Okay. Maybe I'll get some motivation this week. Beside the temple/sanctuary/wonder discussion, I would like to suggest a modification with the tavern. Firstly, it is very cliché and I don't see the link with a religious war fanatic. Secondly, I have a simple suggestion to change that: creating a banquet/feasting building (the Celicnon) by lightly modifying the actual building of the gallic temple. Feasting is a practice linked with important social, political, and economic functions. Aristocrats were probably trying to recruit and impress the others in these places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted June 25, 2018 Report Share Posted June 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Genava55 said: Yes I have seen it, but there is often a mix of Gallic and Britonic reconstructions, often pictures without any sources (where and when?) and I prefere to centralize the informations, it gives a better idea of the architecture and of the evolution. 0 A.D. is a game, it is impossible to get everything totally accurate, you need to have an artistic imagination to make a Gallic military barrack since this thing never existed. To get this imagination, you need to have an overview of the whole picture. From the items of everyday life to complex sanctuaries and fortifications. Yeah sure. But for that it's good if you exhaust all the sources. There might be other threads on the forums that have some pieces of truth. It's impossible but we will still try our best About the tavern you basically want me to trash it and make a new one correct ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nescio Posted June 25, 2018 Report Share Posted June 25, 2018 1 hour ago, stanislas69 said: About the tavern you basically want me to trash it That wouldn't be a bad idea; taverns are more something of Medieval and Early Modern Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genava55 Posted June 25, 2018 Report Share Posted June 25, 2018 1 hour ago, stanislas69 said: Yeah sure. But for that it's good if you exhaust all the sources. There might be other threads on the forums that have some pieces of truth. It's impossible but we will still try our best About the tavern you basically want me to trash it and make a new one correct ? Yes. But I suggest to not trash the actual temple and to modify it. It is an interesting building for a feasting place since there is a central and open yard, with two pikes/poles in the entrance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted June 25, 2018 Report Share Posted June 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Nescio said: That wouldn't be a bad idea; taverns are more something of Medieval and Early Modern Europe. 52 minutes ago, Genava55 said: Yes. But I suggest to not trash the actual temple and to modify it. It is an interesting building for a feasting place since there is a central and open yard, with two pikes/poles in the entrance. I was going for this when I made the tavern https://www.google.fr/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/80506030?source=images Original thread ( You can see the old model it replaced) I don't know if you can access those but a few resources from the past Bonus for @Sundiata About the temple I'm not against keeping stuff 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genava55 Posted June 25, 2018 Report Share Posted June 25, 2018 I can't see most of the pics. I know this "tavern" found in Lattara, but it is actually during the Roman period (since the Narbonnaise was Romanized earlier). You can have an academic analysis here: https://www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-core/content/view/372294246DB2B888F516079B4DD2C011/S0003598X15001842a.pdf/communal-eating-and-drinking-in-early-roman-mediterranean-france-a-possible-tavern-at-lattara-c-125-75-bc.pdf I don't argue against the existence of "tavern" but against the use of them for recruitment process. I suggest an alternative with a more political custom, the feasting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted June 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted June 25, 2018 (edited) Nope. Edited June 25, 2018 by Lion.Kanzen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted June 25, 2018 Report Share Posted June 25, 2018 @feneur Can they be unarchived? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
feneur Posted June 25, 2018 Report Share Posted June 25, 2018 54 minutes ago, stanislas69 said: @feneur Can they be unarchived? Done. Moved them to the Art references forum for now. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan` Posted June 25, 2018 Report Share Posted June 25, 2018 52 minutes ago, feneur said: Done. Moved them to the Art references forum for now. Thank you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundiata Posted June 26, 2018 Report Share Posted June 26, 2018 (edited) Some more random artists' interpretations: Spoiler If this wasn't Halstatt, it would make for a great wonder: the Vix Grave at Mont Lassois, Burgundy, Hallstatt culture, late VI century BC Acy Romance temples: other: And some lovely Celts to finish: Halstatt? La Tène! On 6/25/2018 at 5:41 PM, Genava55 said: Thx a lot, there is a couple of pictures I didn't have. But the problem with pictures on internet is that people never put the sources and the basic informations (what, where and when). That's what reverse image searching is for. I do this very often before sharing images, to see them in the original context they were shared in, find out the back story, and find the highest quality version of the image available. Where I live, I don't have access to university libraries. I'd have to drive an hour to the University of Ghana at Legon, Accra, and they're not particularly known for their expertise in Celtic history... I could order copies of studies, but I'd have to pay money I don't have. I have to depend on the internet, but that's not a bad thing, as I'm often "lucky" enough to find scholarly publications on the subjects I'm reading up on, and quite a few of the images I share come from screenshots of images in these pdf's. For the Gauls, I felt satisfied enough with the images I found without diving into too many academic works (it's a very popular subject, and I've read about them more extensively in the past)... I think everybody actively contributing to the development of 0AD is aware of the need to be cautious with artists' interpretations, but they often provide good inspiration for models in-game, and are often discussed quite publicly in the forum (like now), where the balance between historicity and artistic license is constantly weighed. I guess the general rule of thumb is: when you have quality primary references, use those. When there aren't any available, do what makes sense for the time, place and context, when necessary (for example those structures that are mostly RTS-conventions like barracks, towers, archery range etc). On 6/25/2018 at 5:41 PM, Genava55 said: For example, a lot of peoples are using the illustration of J.-C. Golvin of Bibracte while he is mostly depicting a gallo-roman town. That's why I didn't share the images of Roman structures, but only the local Gallic ones. Between the Gallic wars and the founding of Augustodunum in 15 BC, any significant Roman presence at Bibracte was confined to a very small window of time, and the Roman structures are clearly identifiably Roman: Spoiler On 6/25/2018 at 5:41 PM, Genava55 said: And about the Parisii oppidum, it is clearly a fraud and a plagiarism. It comes from someone that is unrelated to the archeologic world http://pierregable.fr/portfolio/oppidum-gaulois/ Care to expand? They did literally state "We know almost nothing of the Gallic period Paris, and we had to ask the historians to take biases, which is always a delicate position in their profession. We have therefore chosen to place this small town on an island like « l’ile de la cité » without situate precisely. One of the challenges was to recreate an anarchic but coherent planning. This stage was carried out by my team in Casablanca, in 4 months by 10 people. This 3D web model is a part of the Paris 3D saga." It's just to provide an idea about what the oppidum of the Parisii may have looked like, not an absolute reconstruction. That's why I had to laugh with the Corent sanctuary seen among the models. On 6/25/2018 at 9:30 PM, stanislas69 said: Bonus for @Sundiata Thank you ! I did read it some months ago via the profile of Shogun 144. I was pleasantly surprised, and impressed that he wrote that more than 10 years ago! There are some common mistakes/confusions, but it's quite a decent write up, even mentioning some things that still aren't widely known/quoted today. I did squeak when I read: Quote Petronius was victorious in the end and Amanirenas surrendered She did no such thing! I was like: Spoiler Petronius was totally surrounded after withdrawing his army to Premnis in the northernmost portion of Kush, close to the Roman border, after the sack of Napata. In the ensuing negotiations with Augustus, Amanirenas' representatives secured all of her demands. Augustus even handed Premnis (Qasr Ibrim) back over to the Kushites, my very strong guess, in return for the safe passage of Petronius and his army back to Roman Egypt... In fact, if I recall correctly, as a result of the whole war, the "Aethiopian" (read Kushite) population of Southern Egypt (which was substantial), wasn't even ruled by the Romans, but were governed by a Kushite governor, and they were also left in charge of the temples. As it often was under the Ptolemies, substantial parts of southern Egypt became a sort of buffer-zone with the Kushite state with a very delicate balance. Edited June 26, 2018 by Sundiata Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genava55 Posted June 26, 2018 Report Share Posted June 26, 2018 9 minutes ago, Sundiata said: And about the Parisii oppidum, it is clearly a fraud and a plagiarism. It comes from someone that is unrelated to the archeologic world http://pierregable.fr/portfolio/oppidum-gaulois/ It comes from a french documentary about Paris where they didn't even show the sanctuary, his work was only display for a few seconds, it seems that Pierre Gable is intentionally using the Arte logo as a proof of quality, mixing different pictures on the page with his own personal model without specify it. His model is in fact used by Dassault Systems on a video to make a promotion of their software: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-64kHmCJGMA Clearly for me, it is unethical. Since the sanctuary of Corent was modeled by a different company (court-jus prod.). 16 minutes ago, Sundiata said: That's what reverse image searching is for. I do this very often before sharing images, to see them in the original context they were shared in, find out the back story, and find the highest quality version of the image available. Where I live, I don't have access to university libraries. I'd have to drive an hour to the University of Ghana at Legon, Accra, and they're not particularly known for their expertise in Celtic history... I could order copies of studies, but I'd have to pay money I don't have. I have to depend on the internet, but that's not a bad thing, as I'm often "lucky" enough to find scholarly publications on the subjects I'm reading up on, and quite a few of the images I share come from screenshots of images in these pdf's. For the Gauls, I felt satisfied enough with the images I found without diving into too many academic works (it's a very popular subject, and I've read about them more extensively in the past)... I think everybody actively contributing to the development of 0AD is aware of the need to be cautious with artists' interpretations, but they often provide good inspiration for models in-game, and are often discussed quite publicly in the forum (like now), where the balance between historicity and artistic license is constantly weighed. I guess the general rule of thumb is: when you have quality primary references, use those. When there aren't any available, do what makes sense for the time, place and context, when necessary (for example those structures that are mostly RTS-conventions like barracks, towers, archery range etc). Do you know this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_Genesis 18 minutes ago, Sundiata said: Halstatt? La Tène! Thanks for the pictures. About these ones in particular, I want to scan them in good quality, since I have them in a book. It is a very good work from Fernando Quesada Sanz. The first one comes from different findings in Marne and Champagne (where the Hallstatt / La Tène boundary is more complex), with several inspiration from the Roquepertuse statues and this scabbard: It is what the Early La Tène warrior could look like. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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