Others RTS - Discuss / Analysis

[Genava55]

 

[Sundiata]

That looks incredible... 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I like the road placement.

[Genava55]

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

10 hours ago, Genava55 said:

 

I love the way walls are placed.

Another thing I've noticed about a lot of RTS games, that 0 A.D. may be getting wrong, is that maps in other games are largely open space, allowing a lot of space for the player to build without the frustration of random trees or rocks blocking the way. Now, in Delenda Est I fixed this by allowing trees to be built over (the tree is removed). It just needs the tree to turn red when the building preview is waved over it and it would be feature complete. 

Also, maps in other games tend to have maybe 3 or 4 main terrain textures for that map and that's it. 0 A.D. currently may use way too many terrains per map. It's something I'm trying to fix with the new biomes, reduce the number of terrains, make them super textures so they can take up more of the terrain grid with less repeating pattern.

[Genava55]

On 8/30/2020 at 10:51 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I love the way walls are placed.

Another thing I've noticed about a lot of RTS games, that 0 A.D. may be getting wrong, is that maps in other games are largely open space, allowing a lot of space for the player to build without the frustration of random trees or rocks blocking the way. Now, in Delenda Est I fixed this by allowing trees to be built over (the tree is removed). It just needs the tree to turn red when the building preview is waved over it and it would be feature complete. 

Also, maps in other games tend to have maybe 3 or 4 main terrain textures for that map and that's it. 0 A.D. currently may use way too many terrains per map. It's something I'm trying to fix with the new biomes, reduce the number of terrains, make them super textures so they can take up more of the terrain grid with less repeating pattern.

Well it really depends on the focus of the gameplay. Stronghold series is known to focus more on the buildings and the economy. The military is more about strategies than tactics, more about macro than micro. Siege defense also plays a big role, with a more dynamic system than 0AD and AoE. So everything stresses the need for open field and wide space.

At the opposite, I would say Ancestors Legacy is the perfect example of the reverse situation, focusing more on tactical decisions. Terrain diversity, closer field, chokepoints etc. this is clearly suited to the gameplay.

[Genava55]

 

[Genava55]

 

[Genava55]

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by Genava55

[Genava55]

darn it is looking cool

[azayrahmad]

Anyone ever played The Fertile Crescent?

Graphics are not as flashy, but offers interesting take on mixing AoE and  Stronghold mechanics. I like that citizens consume foods and can starve. It's under development but playable. It's also free.

https://lincread.itch.io/the-fertile-crescent

Also, is there any plan for 0 AD to be on itch.io?

[Stan`]

32 minutes ago, azayrahmad said:

Also, is there any plan for 0 AD to be on itch.io?

Stay tuned.

[Samulis]

A rather old RTS and not so easy to run these days, but Nemesis of the Roman Empire, also known as Celtic Kings: The Punic Wars ("TPW"), by Haemimont Games (still around) was one of my favorite games growing up! It's not the most historically accurate in retrospect (mixing Imperial and Republican Roman eras), but still a lot of fun. Came out around 2004 I believe, or around 0 A.D.'s early days. I put together a rather mediocre playthrough with commentary (haven't played in nearly a decade so excuse my rust and poor placement on map!):

Interestingly it has both a time period overlap and several core mechanic overlaps with 0 A.D.:

• Capture of structures is prioritized over destruction (in TPW/NRE, buildings cannot be destroyed at all anyway; gates can be broken down though).
• Units have levels and gain experience through combat or stationing in a building which gives them experience trickle. Each unit has its own strength, xp, and armor ratings.
• Units garrisoned in a settlement/structure will fire from its defenses.
• Each civilization is supposed to feel totally unique, and it definitely does this very well in TPW.
• Wild animals roam around, including hostiles.

But TPW also goes off careening in a totally different direction sometimes:

• Resources are localized, not unified. Each settlement or structure has its own resource levels, which are sent around the map using mules which carry up to 1000 food or gold each. You can easily set up repeating routes which will run whenever the value reaches over a threshold (100 units of resource).
• Two-resource economy: food and gold. Food is produced in the rural villages, gold in settlements. The number of population in each controls the rate of production. When you train units, you take pop out of the settlement, meaning gold production drops. You can add more population by sending it from villages, which reduces food production. There is no troop limit, but you can reach a point where you cannot support your army's food consumption, if you do not have enough villages or they are captured. Likewise, if you run too low in population, you will not generate enough gold to train more troops or have enough pop to raise them.
• Units require food to live and carry a small supply, care must be taken to supply food or an army will starve and become easy prey. You can manually train mules to carry food and attach them to the army.
• Rather than just armor and damage, units also have a bonus ability, such as dodging the first strike, reflecting damage back to their attacker, each subsequent hit gives more experience or ignores a greater portion of the enemies' armor, and causing a % of the enemy health as bonus damage. This sets up complex relationships much deeper than Rock-Paper-Scissors of traditional RTS, where certain combined-arms relationships are extremely effective (archers knock off more health on full-health, high-health enemies, making them perfect to strike an enemy first so infantry can finish off).
• The actual damage of a unit is a range (e.g. 18-48), the exact value being determined by the difference in level between the combatant and their enemy. Thus, even heavy units can be overcome by a highly-trained weaker unit.
• There are no mobile siege units in the game. Instead, 1-10 units can build a stationary siege weapon (ballista, catapult, siege tower) on the map in any location. The weapon then attempts to fire at the target, at a rate set by how many units are stationed inside. Such weapons are very vulnerable to a sally-out, but not vulnerable to fire from towers.
• Only archers and siege weapons can directly damage buildings. Damage is not used to destroy the building, but rather harm and eventually kill the enemies stationed inside. Once the units inside have been pacified - or they have fled - the army will then attempt to capture the structure.
• Rather than units being freely formed into formations, they must be 'bonded' to a Hero who will lead them and enforce their formation. The Hero also gives bonus levels and can apply modifiers in battle. Without bonding to a hero, units will fight okay, but they will just sort of wander around without any formation. Heroes are limited to 50 units.
• Around the map are various special ruins and structures which give benefits. E.g. Ruins contain powerful artifacts which only high level heroes can pick up and use, which can cause damage or heal allies or grant bonus damage/health. Healing wells will heal passing or nearby units regardless of side. Capturable forts, trade outposts, stone outposts, and training outposts each provide benefits and lots of LOS to their owner. Forts slowly convert stationed villagers into macemen, trade outposts convert food into gold, stone outposts gain 8 gold/s interest when at least 2000 gold is placed inside of it, and training outposts behave like barracks in 0 A.D. and give experience trickle to units stationed inside.
• The cheesiest voice acting ever recorded.

Some stuff I really like from TPW I wish was in more RTS:

• Spacebar brings up FULL SCREEN "mini"-map from which you can issue orders even. Makes the logistics and overview of the battlefield much easier.
• When entering combat, formations will sort of 'merge' into a battle, finding enemies to fight like in a real melee, and try to push beyond just the closest enemy.
• Iberian priestesses don't heal but instead gift units experience up to a certain level when a tech is researched.
• Units in other cultures gain experience by having mock-combat with their buddies. Priests help them to heal while this goes on, though if an enemy attacks it can be disastrous!

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

6 minutes ago, Samulis said:

• Spacebar brings up FULL SCREEN "mini"-map from which you can issue orders even. Makes the logistics and overview of the battlefield much easier.

This would definitely be nice for 0 A.D. Or the screen goes to a full-screen minimap if you zoom out far enough. Either way.

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 minutes ago, Samulis said:

•  

• Spacebar brings up FULL SCREEN "mini"-map from which you can issue orders even. Makes the logistics and overview of the battlefield much easier.
• !

I like this idea.

 

I lay this around in the 2000s. 2003 maybe.

[Samulis]

6 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

I lay this around in the 2000s. 2003 maybe.

Yep! 2003-2004 I believe. The engine was also used in an earlier game, Celtic Kings, and a later game which never received a US/English language launch. It seems Haemimont was very interested in tweaking the way the game worked internally, so each game plays rather differently according to the reviews I've read.

The minimap is great with the abstraction of the dots. You can see unit flows easily and clicking somewhere on the map drops you out so you can see what it is.

Edit: I think the mechanic of the fullscreen mini-map might have been borrowed from the Tactical (?) view in Homeworld (earlyish 3D space RTS).

[Lion.Kanzen]

more or less I want that for 0 AD.

[badosu]

Great game: https://www.beyondallreason.info/
 

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

 

[Genava55]

9 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

 

Incredible what some modders are able to do

[azayrahmad]

On 03/03/2021 at 10:15 AM, Lion.Kanzen said:

more or less I want that for 0 AD.

 

I recognize this game! Ah... Empire Earth II... The RTS with so many cool features but ended up rarely used. Though this map is great for multiplayer.

[azayrahmad]

Oh... speaking of cool unused features, I present to you Ancient Wars: Sparta.

Found the demo more than a decade ago, can't run it because of my crappy computer. Recently ran across a gameplay video of it, turns out someone decided to remaster the game to a stand-alone mod... Not sure about the legality of such "stand-alone" mod, but I got curious and played it just to check some features out, though I haven't yet record or take any screenshot. So here's another gameplay video of the mod:

In short: (Potentially) great engine, so-so game.

Some features that 0 A.D. can take note:

- Soldiers atop of ships, similar to Rise and Fall: Civilizations at War. Soldiers can also be seen training in barracks.

- Nice looking UI. I particularly love this soldiers on ship that is shown cleverly in GUI.

- Research is done per equipment, and you can design your own soldier according to weapons you have researched.

Although I'm not sure the suitability of this feature in a historical game, and arguably this is adding micro, this is still great for mods.

- In a similar note, stable train horses, not cavalry. You can then order soldiers to mount the horses. The mechanism is similar to garrisoning ram unit in 0 A.D.

- Good animations. Still far from AoE3 level but quite good.

If you want to try the game, I recommend to go straight to skirmish instead of the buggy tutorial and campaigns.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

That UI is nice, but it's huuuuge and omnipresent. One thing I like about the video is the target flash. 0 a.d. needs this quality of life feature.

I also forgot how nice of a feature falling trees are lol. I like the cloud shadows, but in this video it's out of control. Lol

Edited March 8, 2021 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

That UI is nice, but it's huuuuge and omnipresent. One thing I like about the video is the target flash. 0 a.d. needs this quality of life feature.

I also forgot how nice of a feature falling trees are lol. I like the cloud shadows, but in this video it's out of control. Lol

It has a style very inspired by Warcraft 3. and the typical artist touchs of Age of empires.

[Lion.Kanzen]

@Palaxin

 

You could take a look at that interface. That game Ancient Wars: Sparta.