===[TASK]=== Stables, Workshops, and Ranges

[Nescio]

25 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

So, which one is it?? lol...

The AI is not the problem, mimo is constantly improving Petra, see e.g. rP20389 , rP20399 , and rP20457

Based on those, I also managed to get the AI using stables etc. in my A22 0abc mod.

[Alexandermb]

I agree with @Sundiata wouldn't harm hold a month or two if it can be done, at least stables will fit extremely good with the horses/camels/elephants units update, and siege workshops with the siege infantry animations.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

NO ITS AN ALPHA MUST BE BALANCED AND ENTIRE TECH TREE REBASED YALL.

[Lion.Kanzen]

The some sounds are missing like  siege workshop selection building and second archery sound.(are minor details)

[LordGood]

best thing to do here instead of arguing misconceptions is to actually ping @mimo for a status update lol

@stanislas69 do you have either of the Gaul buildings IP, or can i go ahead and push forward with them next?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

11 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

The some sounds are missing like  siege workshop selection building and second archery sound.(are minor details)

I think DE does it quite well by moving some sounds around, specifically using the "broch" sound for the Workshop and making the Britons Broch just have the standard fortress sound.

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I think DE does it quite well by moving some sounds around, specifically using the "broch" sound for the Workshop and making the Britons Broch just have the standard fortress sound.

I have my own idea even I record(foley) some.

[Stan`]

9 hours ago, LordGood said:

best thing to do here instead of arguing misconceptions is to actually ping @mimo for a status update lol

@stanislas69 do you have either of the Gaul buildings IP, or can i go ahead and push forward with them next?

I haven't started them yet so go ahead. You could also do the mace workshop or commit the existing ones or the Kushites

Don't forget to remove the ao suffix from the ao textures as it's implicit by the folder name

Oh and if you can try the new actor editor

 

[Nescio]

11 hours ago, LordGood said:

best thing to do here instead of arguing misconceptions is to actually ping @mimo for a status update lol

@stanislas69 do you have either of the Gaul buildings IP, or can i go ahead and push forward with them next?

In case you decide to enable the new structures, you can use:

https://code.wildfiregames.com/differential/diff/5994/

[mimo]

19 hours ago, LordGood said:

best thing to do here instead of arguing misconceptions is to actually ping @mimo for a status update lol

Yes, the AI is more or less able to cope with them, although some final tweaks will be needed when these structures are really in.

 

But more globally concerning this thread, we agreed in the team some time ago to wait until a23 is out before enabling these structures, and i don't see any good reason to change that decision and delay more the release. My motivations to support this decision were:

- only enabling the existing structures is not enough, we should take this opportunity of new available structures to give more diversity (based on history) between civs, and not just adding what is available. And that will take time.

- that will inevitably require some balance, which will also take time to have it right (even if some people here seems to think it is useless for an alpha, i don't see how it can help the fame of 0ad to release something unbalanced).

- A23 is already quite late compared to what we wanted (we were aiming at beginning of february) and staying in a pre-release state for too long does not help development as it prevents the important changes that people don't dare to do before a release.

- A23 has already a huge highlight, the kush, and most of the other changes may go unnoticed in comparison. I'd much prefer to have a short A24 in a few months highlighting these new structures with possible improved diversity between civs.

[LordGood]

23 hours ago, stanislas69 said:

Oh and if you can try the new actor editor

Its a bit slower than the current one, given it does away with the spreadsheet, but i can see how it can be more intuitive for newer artists. Had a bit of a problem with actually saving my changes, though i may have set up my  config file wrong. Definitely takes a bit of getting used to navigation-wise, maybe some windows can be labeled better for someone not familiar with how these things work?

[Sundiata]

@mimo Thank you for the clarifications/explanation!

Sorry about being such a spoiled brat about everything "I want" for 0AD. I always want more . I've just learned to speak my mind, so that my thoughts are out there, and they don't fester in my mind. Of course I'm not familiar with all the specifics that go in to implementing such a comprehensive change, but I can imagine it takes quite some time and effort, and if you say it's not feasible for this release, I can only thank you for taking the time to explain why  

Of course I have my own perfectly selfish reasons for wanting this in alpha 23

A bunch of jibber jabber, be warned:

Spoiler

[DISCLAIMER] These are just my personal thoughts on the subject, to clarify why I wanted the new structures in this release, as opposed to the next.

14 hours ago, mimo said:

- A23 has already a huge highlight, the kush, and most of the other changes may go unnoticed in comparison. I'd much prefer to have a short A24 in a few months highlighting these new structures with possible improved diversity between civs.

This was one of my motivations for wanting it in alpha 23. I think the improvements from alpha to alpha are impressive, to say the least, BUT, they go relatively unnoticed for most players, as there are always new players unfamiliar with the development process and old players might not be conscious about every way the pathfinder improves, or the AI builds towns, or sets up it's army and responds to threats, unit-stats or texture improvements and map-scripting and so forth. Those mostly have a subconscious impact on casual players. 

A lot of players skip alphas (sometimes years), just to feel a greater sense of improvement to the game over time, simply because the changes aren't always very noticeable from alpha to alpha. Kush is very noticeable indeed, but I really wouldn't mind if they are only one of many noticeable changes. The main reasoning is to have an extremely comprehensive alpha update, which goes well with the kind of special edition feeling of this "in memory of Ken Wood" release. 

I'm thinking about how to get 0AD to that critical mass of players, through renewed interest because of a host of noticeable changes, which a single, comprehensive and well-marketed release can achieve.

I'm also thinking about the tactics and strategy to market 0AD in the context of internationally renewed interest in RTS games of this type. There are a bunch of new games on offer and in development that offer something comparable to 0AD, and I want 0AD to stand tall among them. Especially with the (disappointing) release of AoE DE and the announcement of AoE IV, people are going to be looking for games that can "fill the void" until AoE IV is actually released. 0AD alpha 23 will do more than just fill the void. Adding the new structures will really make 0AD stand out even more.

 

14 hours ago, mimo said:

- that will inevitably require some balance, which will also take time to have it right (even if some people here seems to think it is useless for an alpha, i don't see how it can help the fame of 0ad to release something unbalanced).

Of course I don't want to detract from the importance of balance, but to be fair, there hasn't been a "satisfyingly" balanced alpha yet. Every single alpha release sees a huge flurry of complaints/suggestions about balance either way. And I'm pretty sure it's not possible to please everyone anyway. 

By far the most brought up balance issue of alpha 22 is the skirm-cav spam, and stables don't solve, but mitigate the issue. I don't know how the skirm cav issue has been addressed in the current release though. My personal pet peeve is "barrack spam". I know I'm selfish but I just can't stand seeing players build 20 barracks (or more) in one place. At least it won't be nearly as much an assault on the aesthetics of the game if 1 structure (barracks),  becomes 4 unique structures (barracks, siege, range, stable).

 

14 hours ago, mimo said:

- A23 is already quite late compared to what we wanted (we were aiming at beginning of february) and staying in a pre-release state for too long does not help development as it prevents the important changes that people don't dare to do before a release.

Not denying that. But that also doesn't mean that there aren't a host of other projects people are working on right now, which could/should be implemented in this release, once again, to have an as comprehensive and impressive release as possible, to help get the buzz on 0AD going again. I'm talking about all the new animations, textures, map-scripting, GUI changes etc... There's no point in rushing a release when people are still working on stuff that could be implemented in this release, but won't be because of time-constraints. This also has a demoralising effect, to have to wait another 6+ months to see their improvements implemented. The community is on a roll right now, and I'd just suggest riding the wave, instead cutting it short. 

 

In short, I'm just thinking about what would get gamers talking about 0AD again. What would get people to write articles about the game again, or record exciting video's about why 0AD is actually the greatest classic RTS ever... What would give 0AD the push it needs to take it's rightful position among the cream of the crop. The last few alpha releases have been really impressive, but the improvements between them are too incremental to warrant great publicity. 

As for the selfish part: Simply because I've been so invested in the development of the Kushites, the more developed the game is, the more beautifully Kushites will be showcased, along with every other civ  Seen as the models are on the cusp of being finished my mouth is just watering at the thought of having them together with Kushites in this release .

 

Edited March 3, 2018 by Sundiata

[mimo]

I quite agree with the word "selfnishness" that you've used 
I think what most players would love is a better pathfinder and less lag, much more than a new civ or some new buildings. Does that mean we should delay the release until we have them? And even without going to that extreme, there are always some improvments (a new animation, a new feature, ...) which would be nice to have and with somebody thinking it would be a good reason to delay a release.
Futhermore, even with several major changes, people will talk on the web about a new release for no more than 2-3 weeks, and then switch to something else. So, to maintain the interest on the game and attract more new players, I think it would be much more efficient to have a short release cycle (six months looks good) rather than indefinitely delaying releases.

 

[Nescio]

Thank you for your explanation, mimo.

Personally I don't really care whether these new structures will be enabled in A23, A24, A25, or never. It's not that hard to use them in a A22 mod already. Furthermore, improved graphics, more civilizations, and additional content are certainly nice to have, but not really important for me. The primary reason I'm looking forward to the release of A23 are the thousands of minor improvements which will probably go mostly unnoticed, but certainly contribute to make 0 A.D. more capable, efficient, and flexible.

1 hour ago, mimo said:

Futhermore, even with several major changes, people will talk on the web about a new release for no more than 2-3 weeks, and then switch to something else. So, to maintain the interest on the game and attract more new players, I think it would be much more efficient to have a short release cycle (six months looks good) rather than indefinitely delaying releases.

A shorter life cycle would certainly be more than welcome. There were six releases in 2010 and five in 2011. A21 lasted for nearly nine months and A22 was released about eight months ago now.

Maybe it's because the team is ambitious and sets higher targets, to ensure each release will be a major improvement from the previous one. I don't know how much work releasing another alpha is, but to maintain interest, having three smaller releases a year would be preferable to just one major release.

Just my two cents. Allow me to emphasize I highly appreciate what all of you are doing!

[Sundiata]

@mimo, fair enough... Thanks again for taking the time to reply.

[LordGood]

[Stan`]

I like the roof a lot ! props are great too.

[Imarok]

Is the mace workshop model still missing?

(Just asking, cause it is currently the only workshop A23 would need ;))

[LordGood]

I still have the last few workshops to commit, which includes the greek workshop

[Imarok]

40 minutes ago, LordGood said:

I still have the last few workshops to commit, which includes the greek workshop

Would be nice to get that into A23