Hellenizing the Ptolemies

[wackyserious]

Some stuff from the guys at Divide et Impera. Thoughts on this?

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, wackyserious said:

Some stuff from the guys at Divide et Impera. Thoughts on this?

mmmm nah. lol

[Genava55]

1 hour ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

But it certainly makes more sense to conceive of their padding as a one-piece-garment placed over an amour of lighter or heavier nature - the question of that nature can be conveniently ignored since it cannot be seen.

Indeed. Evidences from different era and cultures point in the direction of one piece armour in fabric. 

https://journals.openedition.org/cy/3293

Edited May 2, 2019 by Genava55

[Stan`]

On 2/24/2019 at 8:06 PM, LordGood said:

i dunno, thoughts?

@LordGood Commit ?

[wackyserious]

4 hours ago, wackyserious said:

Some stuff from the guys at Divide et Impera. Thoughts on this?

@Sundiata Could be used for the Kushites?

[wackyserious]

3 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

mmmm nah. lol

Will not put player color on it, haha

I will ask Sundiata if it could be used for the Kushites

[Genava55]

https://www.pinterest.ch/pin/7881368075448587/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultanate_of_Bagirmi

Edited May 2, 2019 by Genava55

[Lion.Kanzen]

8 hours ago, wackyserious said:

Some stuff from the guys at Divide et Impera. Thoughts on this?

I'm not sure. they mention similar padded gambeson armor.

the look or representation is my doubt.

 

 

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

Spoiler

probably more like this.

 

the shape look like central Asia.

Spoiler

Yuezhi 

[Lion.Kanzen]

Spoiler

Quote

Puh, i used many, and i think that i still dont saw them all. Mostly i made use of excavation reports of the numerous sites. 
The most important ones are:

- Laszlo Török: "Meroe City: An Ancient African Capital. John Garstang's Excavations in the Sudan", 1997 
- C. Leonard Wooley&Randall Maciver: "Karanog. The Romano-Nubian Cemetry", 1910
- Dows Dunham: "Royal Tombs at Meroe and Barkal", 1957
- Dows Dunham: "The Royal Cemetries of Kush. The West and South Cemetries at Meroe", 1963
- Bruce Beyer Williams: "Meroitic Remains from Qustul Cemetry Q, Ballana Cemetry B, and a Ballana Settlement", 1991


Beside excavation reports i also made use of relief collections from specific sites. The three most important ones by far are these ones (Sadly they are all only available on German): 

- Fritz Hintze: "Musawwarat es Sufra. Der Löwentempel. Tafelband", 1971
- Ingrid Gamer Waller&Karola Zibelius-Chen: "Der Löwentempel von Naq’a in der Butan (Sudan)", 1983
- Friedrich Hinkel: "Der Tempelkomplex Meroe 250", 2001

 

full armor hum... @Sundiata I never see the source of these.

 

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?704397-UNITS-The-Kingdom-of-Kush

 

Edited May 2, 2019 by Lion.Kanzen

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[Sundiata]

14 hours ago, wackyserious said:

@Sundiata Could be used for the Kushites?

Yes-ish, but not that type... 

This type:

13 hours ago, Genava55 said:

This is the correct type that saw widespread use in Sudan (and other countries of the East and West African Sahel regions) until the 19th century. The written sources from antiquity are limited to the passage that's quoted with your link, so the evidence is a bit thin, which is why I didn't make a big deal about excluding Kushite cataphracts with quilted cotton armor from the roster. Either way, I'm quite convinced that they used them because of the popularity of that armor in Sudan in later times, and the spread and widespread use of this armour among pre-Islamic peoples of the East and West African Sahel/Savannah. It seems obvious to me that this is in fact the armour referred to by Agatharchides (this example is Sudanese):

 

"he distributed to them and their horses garments of felt, which those of that country (Kush) call kasas, that conceal the whole body except for the eyes."

It wouldn't be the only type of cloth armour (or weapon) from Antiquity that survived intact into the 19th century. Those wrapped linen/cotton corselets for example were used in Sudan as late as the Mahdist revolution!

Kushite examples of possible quilted cotton armour:

 

Compare to the riders of Bagirmi (Sultanate of Bagirmi extended into Western Sudan...)

 

18 hours ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

But it certainly makes more sense to conceive of their padding as a one-piece-garment placed over an amour of lighter or heavier nature

Although quilted cotton is capable of stopping arrows, which is why it was so important for African cavalry armies facing archery heavy opponents, you are essentially correct. In the above images of the riders of Bagirmi, the riders are actually wearing an Iron cuirass underneath it:

 

10 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

probably more like this.

Not exactly.. See above

 

10 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

full armor hum... @Sundiata I never see the source of these.

There are 2 depictions of full body scale armour, both of them belonging to Kushite kings. Definitely seems limited to royalty. The scale armour corselet is much more frequently depicted, usually on gods. Probably wasn't widespread among the common folk either which is why both types are only represented among Champions and Heroes in our roster. 

Detail from the Pylon of the pyramid chapel of King Tarekeniwal. Open image and zoom in to see the details (we have this armour in-game already for one of the heroes)

 

10 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

 http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?704397-UNITS-The-Kingdom-of-Kush

Although the sources themselves are excellent (I've gone through them before), the interpretation is a little lackluster. The artists reused some of the assets from other cultures. Our assets are custom made, and in my humble opinion, far better... For example they used Celtic chariots from the British Isles for the Kushites (or that was perhaps another TW mod)... We have a proper Nile Valley chariot  The use of those bronze Aspides is entirely conjectural.. Use of zebra print although I have yet to see a single depiction of a zebra or it's print in any primary source relating to Kush. Use of the Thureos shield is entirely speculative. Sleeveless quilted cotton armour is something I've never seen in Africa. Their units don't look Sudanese. They look like Romans with a darkened skin or something. To be fair, their depiction of the Kushite army was probably the most accurate one in the gaming industry, untill we came along  And the Kushites in the newer, official Desert Kingdoms culture pack have way more blatant historical inaccuracies... So credit is due. Ancient Empires actually did a very decent job. We just did it better...  

[Lion.Kanzen]

9 minutes ago, Sundiata said:

Yes-ish, but not that type... 

This type:

This is the correct type that saw widespread use in Sudan (and other countries of the East and West African Sahel regions) until the 19th century. The written sources from antiquity are limited to the passage that's quoted with your link, so the evidence is a bit thin, which is why I didn't make a big deal about excluding Kushite cataphracts with quilted cotton armor from the roster. Either way, I'm quite convinced that they used them because of the popularity of that armor in Sudan in later times, and the spread and widespread use of this armour among pre-Islamic peoples of the East and West African Sahel/Savannah. It seems obvious to me that this is in fact the armour referred to by Agatharchides (this example is Sudanese):

 

"he distributed to them and their horses garments of felt, which those of that country (Kush) call kasas, that conceal the whole body except for the eyes."

It wouldn't be the only type of cloth armour (or weapon) from Antiquity that survived intact into the 19th century. Those wrapped linen/cotton corselets for example were used in Sudan as late as the Mahdist revolution!

Kushite examples of possible quilted cotton armour:

 

Compare to the riders of Bagirmi (Sultanate of Bagirmi extended into Western Sudan...)

 

Although quilted cotton is capable of stopping arrows, which is why it was so important for African cavalry armies facing archery heavy opponents, you are essentially correct. In the above images of the riders of Bagirmi, the riders are actually wearing an Iron cuirass underneath it:

 

Not exactly.. See above

 

There are 2 depictions of full body scale armour, both of them belonging to Kushite kings. Definitely seems limited to royalty. The scale armour corselet is much more frequently depicted, usually on gods. Probably wasn't widespread among the common folk either which is why both types are only represented among Champions and Heroes in our roster. 

Detail from the Pylon of the pyramid chapel of King Tarekeniwal. Open image and zoom in to see the details (we have this armour in-game already for one of the heroes)

 

Although the sources themselves are excellent (I've gone through them before), the interpretation is a little lackluster. The artists reused some of the assets from other cultures. Our assets are custom made, and in my humble opinion, far better... For example they used Celtic chariots from the British Isles for the Kushites (or that was perhaps another TW mod)... We have a proper Nile Valley chariot  The use of those bronze Aspides is entirely conjectural.. Use of zebra print although I have yet to see a single depiction of a zebra or it's print in any primary source relating to Kush. Use of the Thureos shield is entirely speculative. Sleeveless quilted cotton armour is something I've never seen in Africa. Their units don't look Sudanese. They look like Romans with a darkened skin or something. To be fair, their depiction of the Kushite army was probably the most accurate one in the gaming industry, untill we came along  And the Kushites in the newer, official Desert Kingdoms culture pack have way more blatant historical inaccuracies... So credit is due. Ancient Empires actually did a very decent job. We just did it better...  

yes i guess that but you are the expert.

-----

I saw some photos of the units you share  too but i forgot where.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

Spoiler

 

and related with this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanem–Bornu_Empire

the last is african but fantasy perhaps realistic forms. 

 

Edited May 3, 2019 by Lion.Kanzen

[Stan`]

4 hours ago, Anaxandridas ho Skandiates said:

I thought this had been committed long ago? I mean why make suche excellent progress not to commit.

@stanislas69 Too yellow, see image of @LordGood top of Page 3 here, between the yellow colour and "white-grey".

Lack of time mostly.

Yeah but the ptolemies are "too yellow" Making them whitewashed like the kushites would reduce the difference between them. A decision has to be taken.

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 hours ago, Sundiata said:

They look like Romans with a darkened skin or something. T

Roman Yuenzhi (Hellenized) lol. check Yuenzhi armor.

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

. 

Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I desaturated the Ptolemy buildings in Delenda Est and nothing was sacrificed.

[Sundiata]

On 5/3/2019 at 7:29 AM, stanislas69 said:

Yeah but the ptolemies are "too yellow" Making them whitewashed like the kushites would reduce the difference between them. A decision has to be taken.

I think, like with the Greek civs, there is supposed to be some (minor) overlap between the models of Kushites and Ptolemies (only having a few "Ancient Egyptian" style house variants for both of them would be good enough in my opinion). Ptolemies are very distinguishable as is, and if Lordgood continues his Hellenization project, I'm sure they will continue to be more than distinguishable enough from other Greek civs and Kushites alike, for the man knows what he's doing  I think the slightly desaturated textures that Wow is using look excellent. 

Edited May 4, 2019 by Sundiata

[Sundiata]

On 5/2/2019 at 12:45 PM, wackyserious said:

@Sundiata Could be used for the Kushites?

From Preview: Medewi 2.0, a TW mod (ignore every other unit in that roster... Way too much conjecture/speculation and plain wrong equipment)

This unit didn't actually look so bad. I actually quite like it. Quilted cotton armour for the rider should have long sleeves, and extend down to as low as the knees. Quilted cotton armour for the horse shouldn't extend to their heads. 

Edited May 8, 2019 by Sundiata

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates

[LordGood]

might have a formula down

[Stan`]

28 minutes ago, LordGood said:

might have a formula down

I guess the trees do all the work

[Anaxandridas ho Skandiates]

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Edited April 8, 2021 by Anaxandridas ho Skandiates