wowgetoffyourcellphone's gameplay design

[Servo]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone @DarcReaver After watching a pro game between Borg and Pysich I have better understanding/realization regarding battalion. Its almost the same in AoE2, and probably many other RTS games with individual unit productions. The game becomes very messy once the heavy battle/war begins. 

I dont play multiplayer but even if you play against AI the game becomes messy too when you allow them (AI) to build armies. I do my army formations but the AI won't. AI doesn't do disciplined sieges or any disciplined military activity. 

I don't know whether the developers really consider options so that the game becomes very organized/disciplined in terms of military activity. I still favor individual unit production since IMO could make it easier to have a mixed unit composition but wouldn't mind if the AI can have battalion units in default (much better). 

Another thing that I noticed on most good player games is that they spam their preferred units mostly that almost two types of armies are just battling for supremacy. I think if there's a limit to the number of units allowed on any type it would be more interesting to see/watch the battle. 

Edited April 27, 2017 by Servo

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

Limiting the number of units one can produce of a specific type is a bad choice.  Units should have particular roles that make them able to be defeated by specific tactics or unit compositions.  For instance, horse archers could be good at hit-and-run, but when fighting the more cost-effective foot missile soldiers, though they may win in some brief engagements, the cost would strain an opponents eco.  Also, foot archers could have good range and decent damage, yet due to line of sight restrictions, they could not fight to their full potential without other units doing recon.  

[Lion.Kanzen]

There are an example why is bad idea have only battalion without individual role.

min 4:39. You don't need a battalion for do simple task like that.

[Lion.Kanzen]

I think we can open a ticket about this matter.

[Servo]

Militarily what I'm trying to limit are the special units, champions and cavalry. This way almost all military unit types a faction is allowed to train can be of use including sieges. If not then each faction who just use one or two types of unit need not have other military units units available for them to train since they can win without others.

Multiplayer games are becoming more chaotic as in AoE2. The fact that units trained don't increase in cost as the number increases adds to the chaos. If you take a look at RoN up to higher ages (industrial) the game is more defined in terms of strategy(civic, military, science and commerce). Even if resources are not depleting the game stays fluid.

i think good players should start or consider trying to play games starting with low resources and see how things go. If techs can be set to more expensive and units more harder to acquire the player will think in multiple ways to win.

 

 

Edited April 27, 2017 by Servo

[Lion.Kanzen]

17 minutes ago, Servo said:

Militarily what I'm trying to limit are the special units, champions and cavalry. This way almost all military unit types a faction is allowed to train can be of use including sieges. If not then each faction who just use one or two types of unit need not have other military units units available for them to train since they can win without others.

Multiplayer games are becoming more chaotic as in AoE2. The fact that units trained don't increase in cost as the number increases adds to the chaos. If you take a look at RoN up to higher ages (industrial) the game is more defined in terms of strategy(civic, military, science and commerce). Even if resources are not depleting the game stays fluid.

i think good players should start or consider trying to play games starting with low resources and see how things go. If techs can be set to more expensive and units more harder to acquire the player will think in multiple ways to win.

 

 

Play Anatolian Plateau. There no much resources.

[Servo]

Looks interesting hope there are more wild animals and good for at least 4 players. Will check it out... 

I'm still experimenting on the AI behavior and might be harder for me to contain 3 Hardest AI on very open and hard to defend main base. 

 

Edited April 27, 2017 by Servo

[Servo]

What I mean was very low starting resources and I think it's 100 each. Normal has 300. Not the map with low resources. 

This setting is my cheat against Hardest AI because I noticed that the keep on training units up to a programmed number before they advance to next phase. If that programned number is not reached they won't phase up(just my guess and observation on AI behavior). Therefore if you keep on raiding them they will keep on responding, get slaughtered and they become easy to beat. 

[Lion.Kanzen]

https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/FormationsWip

ok I will start the ticket.

Quote

Currently, all units in 0 A.D. are controlled individually. A battalion is a new concept where units can only be selected and moved as a group. Battalions can be put into a formation.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

Done ✅ we have the ticket. And as Wraitii says must be training individual.

https://trac.wildfiregames.com/ticket/4545#ticket

Edited April 29, 2017 by Lion.Kanzen

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

26 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

And as Wraitii says must be training individual

Consider my enthusiasm gone.

[wraitii]

I don't actually think they must be trained individually. We could dynamically add units to a bataillon. But that doesn't change that they need to be treated as a single entity.

[Lion.Kanzen]

6 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Consider my enthusiasm gone.

That I'm worried, see you haven't that, but they must do.... our suggestion can't be a waste of time.

[Lion.Kanzen]

5 hours ago, wraitii said:

I don't actually think they must be trained individually. We could dynamically add units to a bataillon. But that doesn't change that they need to be treated as a single entity.

They can separate to be a ( a single soldier) single entity?

[DarcReaver]

On 29.4.2017 at 10:07 AM, Lion.Kanzen said:

Done ✅ we have the ticket. And as Wraitii says must be training individual.

https://trac.wildfiregames.com/ticket/4545#ticket

So, what's the purpose of this ticket? The arguments already hav been repeated like 10 times now...

[Lion.Kanzen]

46 minutes ago, DarcReaver said:

So, what's the purpose of this ticket? The arguments already hav been repeated like 10 times now...

10 times isn't enough... why you think are ticket for? ( sorry if I'm rude) the things  discussed in forum many times are forgotten, even 10 times or 1000. The forum have more than 10 years old. The team haven't  same members. For the new members can be the first time.

[av93]

To cool everything down, I think that there's a lot of misunderstanding in this conversation.

 

At first, Wraitii never said to train units individually to form a battalion, just that the engine should support three kinds of behaviours.

On 16/4/2017 at 8:41 AM, wraitii said:

The most likely outcome, to me, right now, is that we'll ultimately support 3 things:

-individual units

-individual units walking more or less in formation (like in Age of Empires 2)

-actual bataillons for warfare, treated as a single unit, but possibly composed of several underneath.

He specifies that fact later.

On 29/4/2017 at 11:06 AM, wraitii said:

I don't actually think they must be trained individually. We could dynamically add units to a battalion. But that doesn't change that they need to be treated as a single entity.

 

Then

On 29/4/2017 at 10:34 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Consider my enthusiasm gone.

On 29/4/2017 at 4:55 PM, Lion.Kanzen said:

That I'm worried, see you haven't that, but they must do.... our suggestion can't be a waste of time.

 

Lion phrase it's very hard to understand.

IMHO, cause Lion is in favour of individual units managing, he hasn't wrote a concept that actually the others agree, so the ticket isn't really useful cause the concept is  vague and lacks a really good description for someone to implement, being prone to another never-ending discussion about how implement battalions. That's maybe the cause that made Wow write "that his enthusiasm is gone".

As Wraitti said, the engine can handle individual units, so no worry about that.  Engine supporting "dynamic" battalions, for adding or dividing units should be nice. But the problem is that some wants that game should be based on less or more solid battalions and not mess it up in micromanagement.  

[Lion.Kanzen]

Sorry I wrote in a bad time. I'm some sick of my stomach so I mean not the good guy right now.

 

is hard to me say this but developers forgets the suggestion. Simple. But a ticket is a kind of memo.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Quote

IMHO, cause Lion is in favour of individual units managing, he hasn't wrote a concept that actually the others agree, so the ticket isn't really useful cause the concept is  vague and lacks a really good description for someone to implement, being prone to another never-ending discussion about how implement battalions. That's maybe the cause that made Wow write "that his enthusiasm is gone".

Because we haven't a definitive concept design. I can delete and we can discuss for many moths( cof cof) years.

 

we can take decitions  with @wraitii about the concept.

estoy cerca de dormir así que lo dejaré claro. El ticket se puede cambiar varias veces. El punto es que sea un recordatorio.

Edited May 3, 2017 by Lion.Kanzen

[elexis]

Having a trac ticket that links to the forum thread about a topic that is desired by many but not implemented nor documented yet isn't bad. Endless discussions is a thing.

There are definitely some missing design decisions, but nothing is impossible to solve.

The main problem that most of the new design concepts have is that there is no programmer who is enthusiastic enough about this to finish the design concept, convince the team and write all of the code which can take several months to complete.

[Lion.Kanzen]

@elexis we have same discuss with Mercenary camps, but is a thing that will be implement after first part.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I. Have. Working. Merc. Camps. In. DE. There is no need to wait until part 2 unless by choice.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Yes " Unless by choice" that is right. A question you have a list of mercenary troops? Or only are Vanilla these are into the factions?

[sphyrth]

Seems to me that Vanilla is becoming the game engine because of its minimalistic conservative approach
while DE is becoming the main game because its ambitious approach.
Don't let me choose because I like both approaches.

Edited May 4, 2017 by sphyrth

[Lion.Kanzen]

Yes me too. That's why support more DE than vanilla.