[Part III] Faction: The Archaic Hellenes (776-480 B.C.)

[Zophim]

Post info, sources, suggestions, etc. here.  Be sure to credit your source if you post images or written info.  Below is a basic design document.

 

FACTION: Archaic Hellenes
TIMESPAN: 776-480 B.C.
CIV EMBLEM: Gorgon's Head [thanks to Mythos_Ruler for the emblem!]

UNITS
Note: With these placeholders, citizen soldiers should retain the same appearance regardless of promotion.
The exact corresponding scenario editor actor files are listed beside the unit names below, followed by the structure(s) from which they can be trained.
CITIZEN CAVALRY
Greek Horseman – spart_cavalry_spearman_e (Civ Centre, Barracks)
Thessalian Scout – athen_cavalry_javelinist_b (Barracks)
CITIZEN INFANTRY
Thracian Peltast – athen_infantry_javelinist_b (Civ Centre, Barracks)
Greek Hoplite – spart_infantry_spearman_a (Civ Centre, Barracks)
Cretan Mercenary Archer - athen_marine_infantry_archer_b (Barracks)
CHAMPIONS
Spartan Royal Bodyguard – spart_champion_infantry_spear (Gymnasium)
Greek Officer – theb_champion_swordsman – all variations (Fortress) – gives LOS citizen infantry +10 attack – build limit 5 – auras do not overlap
SIEGE
Battering Ram – spart_mechanical_siege_ram (Fortress)
HEROES
Lycurgus hero – spart_hero_brasidas (Council Chamber)
Solon hero – athen_hero_themistocles (Council Chamber)
Cleisthenes hero – athen_hero_pericles (Council Chamber)
SUPPORT
Greek Slave – athen_support_slave (Civ Centre – only building this unit can be trained from) – can
harvest domestic animals, wood, food (berries and farming), metal, and stone; cannot hunt; cannot
build; cannot fight; fairly easy for enemy to capture; 1 Greek Slave should be included in the starting
units group
Greek Woman – athen_support_female_citizen (Civ Centre, House)
Greek Merchant – athen_support_trader (Market)
Priest of Artemis – athen_support_healer_b (Temple)
NAVAL
Fishing Boat – athen_ship_fishing (Dock)
Merchant Ship – athen_ship_merchant (Dock)
War Ship – athen_ship_bireme (Dock)

STRUCTURES
The exact corresponding scenario editor actor files are listed beside the structure names below, followed by their trainable units.
VILLAGE
Barracks – athen_barracks (Greek Horseman, Thessalian Scout, Thracian Peltast, Greek Hoplite, Cretan Mercenary Archer)
Corral – athen_corral (Goat)
Outpost - athen_outpost
Dock – athen_dock (Fishing Boat, Merchant Ship, War Ship)
Farmstead – athen_farmstead
Farm Field - athen_field
House – athen_house (Greek Woman)
Storehouse - athen_storehouse
TOWN
Civ Centre – athen_civil_centre (Greek Horseman, Thracian Peltast, Greek Hoplite, Greek Woman, Greek Slave) – 1 Greek Slave should be included in the starting units group
Blacksmith - athen_blacksmith
Defense Tower - athen_defense_tower
Market – athen_market (Greek Merchant)
Temple – athen_temple (Priest of Artemis)
City Wall – athen_wall... etc.
CITY
Fortress – athen_fortress (Greek Officer, Battering Ram)
Gymnasium – athen_gymnasion (Spartan Royal Bodyguard)
Council Chamber – athen_prytaneion (Heroes)
Temple of Artemis at Ephesus wonder - athen_wonder

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

For champions, think really archaic. Maybe something like "Temple Guard" or "Palace Guard", and then maybe "Chariot Champion." Really give these Greek an old school feel. Bell cuirasses, Illyrian helms, barefeet, penis swag, dipylon and boeotian shields.

Edited January 21, 2017 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[SGK7019]

2 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

For champions, think really archaic. Maybe something like "Temple Guard" or "Palace Guard", and then maybe "Chariot Champion." Really give these Greek an old school feel. Bell cuirasses, Illyrian helms, barefeet, penis swag, dipylon and boeotian shields.

Ok I know it's just my dirty mind playing tricks on me, but penis swag?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Just a joke. Seem like all the archaic art show the hoplites with no skirt.

[SGK7019]

Ah, I see. It made me question my whole English education for a second 

[Zophim]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone  I believe war chariots were from an earlier, Mycenaean timeframe though.  And anyway, the current units roster represents the later archaic period, partly for compatibility with the vanilla game placeholders I'm using at the moment.  But I'm not necessarily ruling out depicting some of the older items you mentioned (except for the no-skirt part, for gameplay purposes they will need to at least have a loincloth of some sort).

Edited January 23, 2017 by Zophim

[shieldwolf23]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone LOL!

[Ultimate Aurelian]

On 1/21/2017 at 3:15 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

For champions, think really archaic. Maybe something like "Temple Guard" or "Palace Guard", and then maybe "Chariot Champion." Really give these Greek an old school feel. Bell cuirasses, Illyrian helms, barefeet, penis swag, dipylon and boeotian shields.

For heroes and maybe champions; it would be interesting to see heavy armor from later on the archaic period (Full panoply for heroes, champion has chance of having Mitra and/or Thigh guard):

Link to detailed pictures of additonal armour pieces:

https://br.pinterest.com/siresasa/ancient-greek-armour-only-historically-accurate/

 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Ultimate Aurelian

[Genava55]

  

On 06/03/2023 at 1:13 PM, MardukAmmon said:

Hi! I am graduated in ancient history and I have suggestion for a dark age mod for 0 a.d. 

First the ideal mod going do the mid VII bc till the end of VI bc.

for the forge I suggest the brit forge for phase I and spartan forge for the Phase III and the same for the barracks for the mounted units.

I don't want to create new assed but use the already created assets that are used in this game!

I can't do by my self, it is only a suggestion for depict an ancient moment of greek history

Civil centre, I used for the first phase the brit civil centre because during the iron age greek used wood houses and palace, but in the beginning of the VI they start to use stone and clay roof. So I chose brit civil centre in the phase I and spartan syssition in the III phase.

For the temple i used the same theory, I chose for the phase I the gaul civil centre because resamble the shape of the famous Argos's first temple made by woods, for the Phase III I chose the spartan temple because has the shape of archaic stone greek temple.

For the defense walls I chose for the phase I the brits wals and for the phase II the kushite, and fort the phase III I suggest the use of spartan defense walls and dors.

For the house I suggest for the phase I the brit house, Phase II iberian and Phase III spartan

For the noble heavy unit i suggest this units. The noble spears used corinthian helmet form champion spearmens spartan, illyrian helmet from spartan sword man, and helmet form middle level spartan hoplite. For the shield they use spartan champion shield, champion swordman shield and macedon champion shield, I think that shield of the lambda (middle level spartan) is anachronistic for archaic greece .

For the leavy spearman i suggest the spartan javellin skin with iphicrates pelt shield

For the Chivalry I suggest for skirmish unit the spartan javellin on a horse, and for mele I suggest noble spears on a horseback like founded on Archaic bronze noble statues

 

[MardukAmmon]

Hi! I suggest some building skins and asset already made for 0 ad, some one who could create the codes probably could create easy the faction!

[Ultimate Aurelian]

On 08/03/2023 at 2:24 PM, Genava55 said:

  

 

Im not sure about having different variants for each phase since it would not be consistent with other civs, maybe just use the Spartan buildings as place holders.

Some of the units seem to have Boeotian or Pilos helmets which are probably too late. I think most units could have Illyrian helmets, with Corinthian helmets(and a few Chalcidians maybe) for the more elite ones.

Maybe i should post the Archaic Greek design doc i have.

Edited Wednesday at 17:00 by Ultimate Aurelian

[Ultimate Aurelian]

here is my old Archaic Greek design, with some updates (i have a couple unpublished civ designs)

Spoiler

INFANTRY

 

• Generic Name:Greek Hoplite. 

• Specific Name: Hoplī́tēs

  • Class: Spearman. 

  • Hacker Armament: Spear, decorative sword (Elite)

  • Appearance: 

  • Garb:
    Basic: Tunic, no sandals
    Advanced: Linothorax, or bronze belts, sandals
    Elite: Linothorax or bell cuirass,  greaves, sandals

• Helmet:
  Basic: Illyrian or kegel
  Advanced:Illyrian or kegel
  Elite: Corinthian

• Shield:
  Basic: Dipylon or Boetian
  Advanced: Dipylon or Boeotian
  Elite:: Dipylon or Boeotian  

• History:  

• Garrison: 1. 

• Function: 

• Special:  

 

• Generic Name: Cretan archer

• Specific Name: Toxotes  Kretikos

  • Class: Bowman

  • Hacker Armament: Bow 

  • Hacker Armament: Sword (elite)

  • Appearance: 

• Basic: Tunic, barefeet
  Advanced: Tunic and sandals
  Elite: Light armor (Cloth armor or bronze belt)

Helmet:
Basic: Bareheaded.
Advanced: Illyrian/kegel or simple conical
Elite: Illyrian/kegel or simple conical

• Shield:
  Basic: None.
  Advanced: None.
  Elite: Small round shield (may have a metal plate)

• History: 

• Garrison: 1. 

• Function: 

• Special: . 

 

•  
•  

• Generic Name: Skirmisher. 

• Specific Name: Akontistes

  • Class: Javelinist. 

  • Hacker Armament: Javelin

  • Appearance: 

    •  Garb:
      Basic: Tunic, no sandals
      Advanced: Tunic, sandals
      Elite:Tunic, sandals and cloak

• Helmet:
  Basic: Bareheaded.
  Advanced: hat
  Elite: Kegel/Illyrian

  • Shield:
    Basic:Square wicker or leather 

  • Advanced:square wicker or leather

  • Elite:Square 

  • History: 

  • Garrison: 1. 

  • Function: - 

  • Special: - 

 

 

CAVALRY

 

• Generic Name: Thesssalian scout

• Specific Name: Thesalos Kataskopos

  • Class: Cavalry Javelinist. 

  • Hacker Armament: Cavalry Javelin (Elite has sword)

  • Appearance: 

    • Appearance: 

• Garb:
  Basic: Tunic and sandals
  Advanced: Tunic, sandals and cloak
  Elite: Armor (Linothorax)

• Helmet:
  Basic: none or hat
  Advanced: Kegel or illyrian
  Elite: Kegel or illyrian

• Shield:
  Basic: Boeotian or wicker shield
  Advanced: Boeotian
  Elite: Boeotian

• Mount:
  Basic:
  Advanced: -
  Elite:

• History: 

• Garrison: 2. 

• Function: 

• Special: -. 

 

• Generic Name: Greek Cavalry. 

• Specific Name: Hippeus

  • Class: Cavalry Spearman. 

  • Hacker Armament: Spear

  • Appearance: Garb:
    Basic: Tunic and sandals
    Advanced: Tunic, sandals and cloak
    Elite: Bell cuirass or thorax

• Helmet:
  Basic: none or hat
  Advanced: Kegel/illyrian
  Elite: Corinthian or Illyrian

• Shield:
  Basic: Boeotian 

• Advanced: Boeotian
  Elite: Boeotian 

  • Mount:
    Basic:
    Advanced: -
    Elite:

 

• History: 

• Garrison: 2. 

• Function: 

• Special: -. 

 

 

SUPPORT UNITS

 

• Generic Name: Greek Woman. 

• Specific Name: 

  • Class: Female Citizen. 

  • Appearance: Chiton. Long hair hair pinned up. 

  • History: 

  • Garrison: 1. 

  • Function: 

  • Special: 

 

• Generic Name: Priest of Apollo

• Specific Name: . 

  • Class: Healer. 

  • Appearance: 

    • Garb: Chiton (player color), with a long white Himation wrapped around him. 

    • Helmet: None. 

    • Shield: None. 

    • Figure(s): 

  • History: 

  • Garrison: 1. 

  • Function: - 

  • Special: - 

 

• Generic Name: Merchant. 

• Specific Name: Émporos

  • Class: Trader. 

  • Appearance: 

    • Garb: Normal chiton with himation (leather boots). 

    • Helmet: Wide brimmed hat. 

    • Shield: None. 

    • Figure(s): Man on trade cart. 

    • Mount: Trade cart. 

  • History: 

  • Garrison: 2. 

  • Function: - 

  • Special: - 

 

 

NAVY

• Generic Name: Fishing Boat. 

• Specific Name: Ploion Halieutikon. 

  • Class: Fishing Ship. 

  • Appearance: 

    • Shell: - 

  • History: Garrison: Cannot. 

  • Garrison Capacity: 1; support, infantry 

  • Function: Gathering:

  •  

• Generic Name: Trading Ship. 

• Specific Name: Ploîon Halieutikón. 

  • Class: Merchant Ship. 

  • Appearance: 

    • Shell: (Standard). 

  • History: 

  • Garrison: Cannot. 

  • Function: Sets up trade routes between friendly Ports. 

  •  

• Generic Name: Penteconter. 

• Specific Name: Pentēkónteros. 

  • Class: Light Warship. 

  • Appearance: 

    • Shell: Single-tier, 25 rows. 

  • History: Penteconters were employed from 800 BC, mostly as a light support unit After 600 BC, they were only seen in battle in very limited numbers. 

  • Garrison: Cannot. 

  • Function: 

  • Special: - 

 

 

 

CHAMPION UNITS

• Generic Name:Front-rank Hoplite

• Specific Name:Promachos

  • Class: Champion Infantry Unit. 

  • Hacker Armament: Spear, sword

    • Garb: Cuirass, greaves and sandals. May have one or two extra armor pieces (arm guard, thigh guard, groin protector) 

    • Helmet: Corinthian

  • Shield: Hoplon  

  • History: 

  • Garrison: 1. 

  • Function: 

  • Special: 

 

• Generic Name: Greek Naval Swordsman

• Specific Name:Epibates / Naumachos 

  • Class: Champion Infantry Unit. 

  • Hacker Armament: Sword

    • Garb: Cuirass or linothorax, greaves and sandals

    • Helmet: Corinthian

  • Shield: Boeotian or hoplon

  • History: 

  • Garrison: 1. 

  • Function: 

  • Special: 

 

• Generic Name: Greek Chariot 

• Specific Name: Harma

  • Class: Champion Cavalry Unit. 

  • Ranged Armament: Javelin. 

  • Appearance: 

    • Garb: Rider has armor (cloth/leather or bell cuirass) and greaves, driver is unarmored,  both carry swords

    • Helmet: Kegel or Illyrian for driver and warrior.

    • Shield: Warrior may have Hoplon/dypylon, driver has a shield on his back

    • Mount: Two small ponies. 

    • Figure(s): 

  • History: 

  • Garrison: 4. 

  • Function: 

  • Special: Officer aura that boosts nearby units. Can fight on foot?

 

 

ARCHAIC HEROES

 

• Generic Name: Lycurgus

• Specific Name: 

  • Class: Hero Spearman. 

  • Hacker Armament: Spear. 

  • Ranged Armament: None. 

Appearance: 

• Garb:Red tunic, with or without armor.

• Helmet:Kegel helm

• Shield: ''Herzsprung type'' bronze plated shield based on delphi votive shield

• History: 

• Garrison: 1. 

• Function: 

• Special: "Hero" Aura  increase hoplite hitpoints

•  

 

• Generic Name: Solon

• Specific Name: Solon

  • Class: Hero Spearman. 

  • Hacker Armament: Spear. 

  • Ranged Armament: 

  • Appearance: 

    • Garb: Bronze panoply (groin protection, ankle guards, upper arm guard, thigh guards, bell cuirass, greaves)

    • Helmet: Corinthian with tall crest

    • Shield: Aspis with gorgon

  • History: 

  • Garrison: 1. 

  • Function: 

  • Special: Constitution, techs research faster

 

• Generic Name: Cleisthenes

• Specific Name: Cleisthenes

  • Class: Hero Swordsman. 

  • Hacker Armament: Xiphos

  • Ranged Armament: None. 

  • Appearance: 

    • Garb:tunic

    • Helmet: Raised corinthian

    • Shield: Owl aspis

  • History: 

  • Garrison: 1. 

  • Function:

  • Special:  Democracy, citizen soldiers train faster

STRUCTURE DESCRIPTIONS

VILLAGE

• Generic Name: Household. 

• Specific Name: Oikos. 

  • Class: House. 

  • History:  

• Generic Name: Granary. 

• Specific Name: Sītobólion. 

  • Class: Farmstead. 

  • History:  

• Generic Name: Field. 

• Specific Name: Agrós. 

  • Class: Field. 

  • History: 

• Generic Name: Corral. 

• Specific Name: Épaulos. 

  • Class: Corral. 

  • History: Basic animal pen. Also for horses, which were rare in the archaic period

• Generic Name: Warehouse. 

• Specific Name: Apothḗkē. 

  • Class: Storehouse 

  • History: 

• Generic Name: Outpost. 

• Specific Name: 

  • Class: Outpost. 

  • History:  

• Generic Name: Palisade. 

• Specific Name: 

  • Class: Palisade. 

  • History:  

TOWN

• Generic Name: Civic Centre. 

• Specific Name: Agorā́. 

  • Class: Civic Centre. 

  • History:  

• Generic Name: Dock. 

• Specific Name: Limḗn. 

  • Class: Dock. 

  • History: The archaic period saw the beggining of greek colonization

• Generic Name: Temple. 

• Specific Name: Peripteros

  • Class: Temple. 

  • History: 

• Generic Name: Barracks. 

• Specific Name: 

  • Class: Barracks. 

  • History:

• Generic Name: Blacksmith. 

• Specific Name: Khalkeîon. 

  • Class: Blacksmith. 

  • History:  

• Generic Name: Marketplace. 

• Specific Name: Empórion. 

  • Class: Market. 

  • History: 

• Generic Name: Defense Tower. 

• Specific Name: Pyrgíon. 

  • Class: Defense Tower. 

  • History:  

CITY

• Generic Name: Fortress. 

• Specific Name: Epiteíchisma. 

  • Class: Fortress. 

  • History:  

SPECIAL STRUCTURES

• Generic Name: Gymnasium

• Specific Name:

  • Class: SB1. 

  • History: 

  • Requirements: None. 

  • Phase: City. 

  • Special: Trains royal bodyguards

• Generic Name: Council Chamber

• Specific Name:  

  • Class: SB2. 

  • History: . 

  • Requirements: None. 

  • Phase: City. 

  • Special: Train Heroes

 

WONDER

• Generic Name: Temple Of Artemis

• Specific Name: 

  • Class: Wonder. 

  • History: . 

  • Requirements: Temple. 

  • Phase: City. 

  • Special:

 

 

CIV BONUSES

• CB1 

  • Name: Othismos

  • History: 

  • Effect: Can make use of the Phalanx formation

• CB2 

  • Name: Poleis

  • History:  

  • Effect: Civ centers and walls are cheaper

TEAM BONUS

• TB1 

  • Name: Olympics

  • History: 

  • Effect: Allied units rank up faster

 

 

TECHNOLOGIES

• Infantry: Good. Strong champion infantry. Ranged units are average.

• Cavalry: Average, more varied than other civs, chariots are weak in combat but act as officers boosting nearby units

• Naval: Good, but few techs 

• Siege: Poor. Only rams.

• Economy: 

  • Farming: Good. 

  • Mining: Good

  • Lumbering: Average. 

  • Hunting: Limited.

  • Land Trade: Mediocre. 

  • Naval Trade: Above averagee 

  • Architecture: Average

  • Defences: Average

SPECIAL TECHNOLOGIES

• ST1 

  • Name: Homeric Hymns

  • History: 

  • Effect: Champions and heroes get a bonus against other champions and heroes

• ST2 

  • Name: Magna Graecia

  • History:  

  • Effect: Civ centers and docks build faster

 

Edited 9 hours ago by Ultimate Aurelian

[Thalatta]

@Ultimate Aurelian, just after having a very fast look at that:

-"Shield: Hoplon": the term is not hoplon, but aspis (which you used somewhere else).

-"Peripteros": this does not mean temple (that's naós*), it's an architectural style.

-"Epiteíchisma": this is not any fortification, but one built in enemy territory**.

-"Only rams": some guys with a log? The first recorded Greek battering ram is from 427 BC.

 

*Are naós and naûs related? https://www.labrujulaverde.com/en/2026/02/is-a-greek-temple-actually-an-overturned-ship-a-new-theory-revolutionizes-the-origin-of-classical-architecture

**That's why "epi" is used. Just fortification would be "teíchisma" (literally "walls", the whole "fort" could be called "phrourion", as in vanilla). You also have proteíchisma (what you build before your fortification, like a smaller wall or ditch) or hypoteíchisma (counter-walls).

[Ultimate Aurelian]

5 hours ago, Thalatta said:

@Ultimate Aurelian, just after having a very fast look at that:

-"Shield: Hoplon": the term is not hoplon, but aspis (which you used somewhere else).

-"Peripteros": this does not mean temple (that's naós*), it's an architectural style.

-"Epiteíchisma": this is not any fortification, but one built in enemy territory**.

-"Only rams": some guys with a log? The first recorded Greek battering ram is from 427 BC.

 

*Are naós and naûs related? https://www.labrujulaverde.com/en/2026/02/is-a-greek-temple-actually-an-overturned-ship-a-new-theory-revolutionizes-the-origin-of-classical-architecture

**That's why "epi" is used. Just fortification would be "teíchisma" (literally "walls", the whole "fort" could be called "phrourion", as in vanilla). You also have proteíchisma (what you build before your fortification, like a smaller wall or ditch) or hypoteíchisma (counter-walls).

The buildings section  is copied from one of the old design docs; tbh i was mainly focused on doing the units and bonuses. My plan would be to largely recycle the names and models from Spartan buildings.

 

Quote

-"Only rams": some guys with a log? The first recorded Greek battering ram is from 427 BC.

They will probably need rams purely for gameplay reasons (it was decide a while ago that all civs will have them iirc).

I suppose they could extrapolate from later rams or use the log ram as with the Germans.

https://research.vu.nl/ws/files/42190004/chapter 10.pdf

Quote

The earliest evidence for use of the battering ram in the Aegean is the bronze ram from Olympia, dated to the first half of the fifth century and currently on display in the museum at Olympia. We know from excavation that the Lydians, presumably under Alyattes II, took Old Smyrna by building an earthen siege ramp. hte use of siege-ladders, well known in the East, is not attested in Greece until the fifth century at the earliest.  Instead, the ancient Greeks fought on the field outside of a town (cf. the fighting in the Iliad), and took towns by storm when the opportunity presented itself, climbing the stone and mubrick walls; they would focus their attacks on weakly defended points or simply tried to overwhelm the enemy.

The actual archaic siege methods would be a bit hard to portray through gameplay (although a tech or passive bonus that makes infantry stronger against buildings to somewhat compensate for poor siege is possible)

The Olympia ram is probably outside the civ timeframe by some decades; with the relative rarity of rams it's possible there were slightly earlier rams that left no record (Siege engines were sometimes built on site because it was easier than transporting, so it's possible they would be discarded afterwards with perhaps the metal parts being melted down or reused in another siege).

Although it might be better to err on the side of caution by giving them only log rams.

As for siege warfare in Greek epics, there is a moment where Hector uses a large pointed boulder to destroy the gates of the Greek camp; clearly another feat of superhuman strenght by mythicals heroes, but perhaps implying that in some Mycenaean/archaic sieges attackers tried to breach gates.

Quote

As a shepherd picks up a ram’s fleece with one hand and finds it no burden, so easily did Hector lift the great stone and drive it right at the doors that closed the gates so strong and so firmly set. These doors were double and high, and were kept closed by two cross-bars to which there was but one key. When he had got close up to them, Hector strode towards them that his blow might gain in force and struck them in the middle, leaning his whole weight against them. He broke both hinges, and the stone fell inside by reason of its great weight. The portals re-echoed with the sound, the bars held no longer, and the doors flew open, one one way, and the other the other, through the force of the blow. Then brave Hector leaped inside with a face as dark as that of flying night. The gleaming bronze flashed fiercely about his body and he had two spears in his hand. None but a god could have withstood him as he flung himself into the gateway, and his eyes glared like fire. Then he turned round towards the Trojans and called on them to scale the wall, and they did as he bade them—some of them at once climbing over the wall, while others passed through the gates.

A quite detailed description of how the gate broke and the tactics employed after breaching

Edited 2 hours ago by Ultimate Aurelian

[Thalatta]

36 minutes ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

use the log ram as with the Germans.

Indeed, surely this started early. For the ram I mentioned, Thucydides states that the defenders "snapped off the nose of the battering ram", implying it was capped, probably with metal like the Olympia ram, which is from around the same period. There are plenty of engagements for which there are no records, but in any case, attacks were usually concentrated on the gates.

 

36 minutes ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

The actual archaic siege methods would be a bit hard to portray through gameplay (although a tech or passive bonus that makes infantry stronger against buildings to somewhat compensate for poor siege is possible)

I don't see that as desirable, but other possibilities could be:

-Spy units hard to see to the enemy, which I proposed recently, could open gates. This is not some far fetched Trojan Horse thing: "political factions aiming at the overthrow of a government could render invaluable assistance in several ways. One method was the opening of the gates of a city under siege. Another was to make it possible for enemy forces to enter the besieged city under the cover of darkness. An excellent example of this is provided by the siege of Plataiai. According to Thoukydides (2.2.1-3), a force of three hundred Boiotians entered the city at night with the aid of Nauklides and his friends who opened the gates for them", from Espionage and Treason in Classical Greece, by A. Gerolymatos.

-Later on, siege ladders could be considered, since apparently they "are mentioned in a fragment attributed to Archilochus" ca. 650 BC.

-Even later, around 585 BC "the Lydians, presumably under Alyattes II, took Old Smyrna by building an earthen siege ramp" (which included wood). Maybe the Greeks learned from that, but their use by them is not attested until over a century later.

-On top of all that, initially walls would have been made mostly of mud-brick, which "resting on a low rubble socle, was not very high or very strong", from Ancient Greek Fortifications, 500-300 BC, by N. Fields. This would have made "climbing the stone and mubrick walls" feasible at some points (as mentioned in the Iliad), where their slope wasn't as steep. For game purposes these points could be where the walls take a turn, and some units could be able to walk over them (at a great speed and resistance cost). In any case, at some point "all-stone fortifications became more common", allowing for taller and steeper walls. Still, there's an interesting difference between both kinds of materials, although maybe hard to implement in the game: "against the blows of engines brick brings greater security than fortifications built of stone. For stones break and are dislodged from their fittings; brick however, does not suffer so much from engines, but it crumbles under the action of water just as wax is melted by the sun" (the last method being how Sparta took Mantineia).

[Ultimate Aurelian]

37 minutes ago, Thalatta said:

I don't see that as desirable, but other possibilities could be:

-Spy units hard to see to the enemy, which I proposed recently, could open gates. This is not some far fetched Trojan Horse thing: "political factions aiming at the overthrow of a government could render invaluable assistance in several ways. One method was the opening of the gates of a city under siege. Another was to make it possible for enemy forces to enter the besieged city under the cover of darkness. An excellent example of this is provided by the siege of Plataiai. According to Thoukydides (2.2.1-3), a force of three hundred Boiotians entered the city at night with the aid of Nauklides and his friends who opened the gates for them", from Espionage and Treason in Classical Greece, by A. Gerolymatos.

-Later on, siege ladders could be considered, since apparently they "are mentioned in a fragment attributed to Archilochus" ca. 650 BC.

-Even later, around 585 BC "the Lydians, presumably under Alyattes II, took Old Smyrna by building an earthen siege ramp" (which included wood). Maybe the Greeks learned from that, but their use by them is not attested until over a century later.

 

The ramps and ladders are interesting but would be somewhat difficult to animate, hence the idea of making it a passive bonus or tech (i think siege ladders are already a technology, or at least they are in the DE mod).

One interesting tidbit about earthen ramps is that the famous Assyrian towered rams were apparently mainly used on top of such ramps to damage the enemy battlements. Does this mean the Lydian ramp was meant for rams? perhaps but there is no definitive proof (Rams built in the "Hurrian manner" are already mentioned in Ḫattušili I's siege of Urshu so they might not be entirely new to Anatolia)

Quote

Still, there's an interesting difference between both kinds of materials, although maybe hard to implement in the game: "against the blows of engines brick brings greater security than fortifications built of stone. For stones break and are dislodged from their fittings; brick however, does not suffer so much from engines, but it crumbles under the action of water just as wax is melted by the sun" (the last method being how Sparta took Mantineia).

This is a quite interesting siege method for civilizations without heavier siege equipment; again a bit dificult to implement (and i'm not sure how much it was used in archaic period itself).

Although perhaps it would be possible to implement a simpler ''underminer'' unit that attacks enemy walls with the villager's pickaxe.

Edited 2 hours ago by Ultimate Aurelian

[Thalatta]

1 hour ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

ladders are interesting but would be somewhat difficult to animate

Maybe after being placed beside a wall, units could go slowly up, in the same way they go up when they are posted on top of walls. Would look a bit goofy right now, but still.

 

1 hour ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

One interesting tidbit about earthen ramps is that the famous Assyrian towered rams were apparently mainly used on top of such ramps to damage the enemy battlements. Does this mean the Lydian ramp was meant for rams? perhaps but there is no definitive proof.

Yes, the Assyrians would do that to ram a thinner part of the walls. In this case, Old Smyrna 1948-1951 by J. M. Cook states that "so gigantic a mound, raised from the low ground to overtop the city fortifications, can only be explained as a siegework; and on chronological grounds therefore it can with certainty be attributed to Alyattes", which would seem to imply that they built it all the way up for troops to climb, but then it says "at a low level in the mound (about 8 metres above sea-level) a large mass of solid mud brick was encountered in our excavation; this may possibly have fallen from a breach effected in the superstructure of the city", and later on "the mud brick superstructure of the fortification there fell forward at the time of the capture or very soon after", which seems to imply ramming at a higher level. Maybe "overtop" was not literal, and the second interpretation (the Assyrian way) is indeed the faster way to do things. All this is a bit of a problem since I don't think troops carrying a log (even capped with metal) would have had enough strength to break a wall, even at a higher level. Interestingly enough, this was also the case for the Thucydides quote already mentioned, before stating the "snapped off the nose of the battering ram" bit, he says that "while raising the mound the Peloponnesians also brought up engines against the city, one of which was brought up upon the mound against the great building and shook down a good piece of it", thus, these were already engines, used in the Assyrian way. All this means that I don't see these siege ramps/mounds viable before having proper battering rams, which coincides with both appearing in Greece in the 5th c. BC, as mentioned before.

 

1 hour ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

This is a quite interesting siege method for civilizations without heavier siege equipment; again a bit dificult to implement (and i'm not sure how much it was used in archaic period itself).

Although perhaps it would be possible to implement a simpler ''underminer'' unit that attacks enemy walls with the villager's pickaxe.

I think the earliest attestations for these in Greece come from the 5th c. BC.

 

In conclusion, and besides the guys with a log (after all, D. B. Campbell in Greek and Roman Siege Machinery 399 BC-AD 363 states that "it is very likely that Western warriors would soon have discovered the value of a stout tree trunk in bursting open a gate"), what seems reasonable in chronological order is: spies, climbing mud-brick walls at certain points, at some point capping the log with metal, after that (EDIT: or before, who knows exactly, both could be independent in the game) and seemingly before the 5th c. BC building a non-movable shed for it, and having ladders for the newer unclimbable stone walls.

Edited 1 hour ago by Thalatta

[Ultimate Aurelian]

23 minutes ago, Thalatta said:

Maybe after being placed beside a wall, units could go slowly up, in the same way they go up when they are posted on top of walls. Would look a bit goofy right now, but still.

 

Yes, the Assyrians would do that to ram a thinner part of the walls. In this case, Old Smyrna 1948-1951 by J. M. Cook states that "so gigantic a mound, raised from the low ground to overtop the city fortifications, can only be explained as a siegework; and on chronological grounds therefore it can with certainty be attributed to Alyattes", which would seem to imply that they built it all the way up for troops to climb, but then it says "at a low level in the mound (about 8 metres above sea-level) a large mass of solid mud brick was encountered in our excavation; this may possibly have fallen from a breach effected in the superstructure of the city", and later on "the mud brick superstructure of the fortification there fell forward at the time of the capture or very soon after", which seems to imply ramming at a higher level. Maybe "overtop" was not literal, and the second interpretation (the Assyrian way) is indeed the faster way to do things. All this is a bit of a problem since I don't think troops carrying a log (even capped with metal) would have had enough strength to break a wall, even at a higher level. Interestingly enough, this was also the case for the Thucydides quote already mentioned, before stating the "snapped off the nose of the battering ram" bit, he says that "while raising the mound the Peloponnesians also brought up engines against the city, one of which was brought up upon the mound against the great building and shook down a good piece of it", thus, these were already engines, used in the Assyrian way. All this means that I don't see these siege ramps/mounds viable before having proper battering rams, which coincides with both appearing in Greece in the 5th c. BC, as mentioned before.

 

There is a theory the Olympia one was specifically designed for breaking mud bricks.

Quote

In conclusion, and besides the guys with a log (after all, D. B. Campbell in Greek and Roman Siege Machinery 399 BC-AD 363 states that "it is very likely that Western warriors would soon have discovered the value of a stout tree trunk in bursting open a gate") 

 The Trajan column actually shows Dacians attacking a Roman fort by holding a metal capped wooden beam (too late for this discussion, but at least it's some evidence that this sort of weapon existed in antiquity).

Edited 1 hour ago by Ultimate Aurelian

[Thalatta]

5 minutes ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

There is a theory the Olympia one was specifically designed for breaking mud bricks.

Yes, that's also in Campbell's book: "the vertical blade, flanked on either side by five triangular teeth, was perhaps designed to cut into mud-brick". But none of this confirms it belonged to a log being carried by troops, as mentioned, it's dated from the late 5th c. BC, a time where there were already ramming "engines".

 

14 minutes ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

The Trajan column actually shows Dacians attacking a Roman fort by holding a metal capped wooden beam

But we would need to additionally know: were they targeting stone walls? Mud-brick walls? Wooden palisades? A gate? For the last two probably it would work, for the first two, I would need to see more concrete evidence. Looking at the representation, it would seem that they are running towards the gate: