===[COMMITTED]=== Macedonian wonder

[Lion.Kanzen]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone @Nescio

[Nescio]

Could you show it from a different angle? I'd like to be able to see the other two sides too, as well as the central courtyard. And perhaps zoom in to better show the columns? Furthermore, how does it look in game? How large is it, compared to other wonders?

I'm not too fond of the steps, trees, and corner decorations around the structure either.

[Nescio]

34 minutes ago, m7600 said:

I'm just doing one side and then I mirror it at the end.

That's wrong, all four sides were slightly different from each other, have a careful look at the images I posted earlier.

35 minutes ago, m7600 said:

Compared to the other wonders, it's about as big as the new Gaul wonder.

While I'm aware wonders are not on the same scale, I'd appreciate it if the Macedonian wonder could be at least somewhat larger than the one used by Gauls. The palace at Aigai was really large, much larger than e.g. the temple of Zeus at Olympia (the current Macedonian and Athenian wonder).

39 minutes ago, m7600 said:

This is why this thing is taking me so long,

Take your time, doing things properly is far more important than doing it quickly. Besides, @Stan` is having a break, so technical feedback or having it committed won't happen soon anyway.

(In case it wasn't clear, you're doing a great job! I don't even know how Blender works .)

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

I'm not too fond of the steps, trees, and corner decorations around the structure either.

Christ.

 

@m7600 I love the trees and decor.  

Edited March 11, 2021 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 07/03/2021 at 6:54 AM, Nescio said:

On 07/03/2021 at 5:04 AM, Nescio said:

at the west side there was a smaller extension with another square, colonnaded courtyard.

 

Don't bother adding this unless you want a bunch of negative space in the structure's footprint (hint: you don't).

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, m7600 said:

About how it looks in game: putting this thing into the game is another can of worms. You see, unlike other civs, like the Kushites for example, the Macedonian buildings are actually split up into several different 3d models. So, for example, you have a model for the columns, then you have a different model for the roof, still a different model for the walls, another one for the plants, etc. I have no idea why these assets were made this way, but if I had to take a guess, I bet it's because they use many different textures. By contrast, most of the Kushite buildings use the same, single texture (except for some special buildings). What I'm saying is that, in order to put this thing in the game, I first have to export each part of the building separately, and each of those parts has to have its own ambient occlusion map, which, if it doesn't look good, has to be re-baked from scratch. This is why this thing is taking me so long, everything is split up into little pieces and I have to combine them with each other as if it was a giant jigsaw puzzle.

Yeah, you just have to use the prop system in the actors later. As you guessed, it's because there were multiple textures used and at the time it was felt better to have separate textures instead of one gigantic texture sheet. Of course, at the time the definition of "gigantic" was different from what we'd call gigantic today.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

4 minutes ago, m7600 said:

The only thing that worries me is a game-play issue. It's gonna be difficult to find some spot on the map to place a huge wonder

Well, as long as it fits within the same footprint as the Hanging Gardens it should be fine.  

 

5 minutes ago, m7600 said:

It may be nice to convert all of those textures into a single one

I thought about that a long time ago, but I'm not sure what's more efficient for the game's graphics memory footprint and then also rendering. Is it more efficient (for the game; I know which is more efficient for the artist) to have two 1024x512 textures or one 1024x1024 texture?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

5 minutes ago, m7600 said:

Making progress (I think). Here are some other angles. The plants are gone, as well as the steps. But I'm thinking of putting them in the central courtyard.

Great progress so far!

[Carltonus]

  Indeed.

On 31/05/2020 at 3:11 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Appreciated if you added the supporting walls on the right in case a player builds this in uneven terrain such as a hilly area? We don't want to see semi-floating bricks again.

@Lion.Kanzen, do you have the shield and winged lions ready? The light-blue part can be the player color.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 minute ago, Carltonus said:

Appreciated if you added the supporting walls on the right in case a player builds this in uneven terrain such as a hilly area? We don't want to see semi-floating bricks again.

Right. A masonry/stone platform would be good underneath. The Athenian wonder needs one too (Parthenon), as it currently floats over hills.

[maroder]

On 11/03/2021 at 10:24 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I thought about that a long time ago, but I'm not sure what's more efficient for the game's graphics memory footprint and then also rendering. Is it more efficient (for the game; I know which is more efficient for the artist) to have two 1024x512 textures or one 1024x1024 texture?

From my limited understanding it is better to have one big texture file, because in some cases (based on the render implementation) it decreases the performance if you draw a texture from one file and then switch to another. But maybe @vladislavbelovknows more about that?

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 hours ago, Carltonus said:

  Indeed.

Appreciated if you added the supporting walls on the right in case a player builds this in uneven terrain such as a hilly area? We don't want to see semi-floating bricks again.

@Lion.Kanzen, do you have the shield and winged lions ready? The light-blue part can be the player color.

I have to look for it because I moved it from my original folder but it was created to have it in another alternative cloud.

[Nescio]

5 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Right. A masonry/stone platform would be good underneath. The Athenian wonder needs one too (Parthenon), as it currently floats over hills.

Actually the Athenians need an entirely new wonder (the Parthenon). The actor they're using right now is the temple of Zeus at Olympia. Something for a future task.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

5 hours ago, Nescio said:

Actually the Athenians need an entirely new wonder (the Parthenon). The actor they're using right now is the temple of Zeus at Olympia. Something for a future task.

Riiiiight. 

[Hidan]

Cant wait to see this

Edited March 13, 2021 by Hidan

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

The checkered tiles can be removed since they will float if not on a flat surface. It actually needs a platform under the ground level to deal with slopes. I like the courtyard and corner trees. The corner trees are a motif, as you've noted, that helps weld the structure set together.

Edited March 13, 2021 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 minute ago, m7600 said:

Actually, those "tiles" won't float because they're not really tiles, they're columns. I copied them from the Macedonian Civic Center.

Trust me, we've wanted to remove them from the CC for years now. The "column" effect is definitely visible in-game and not desirable.  Better to future-proof your hard work and just add a nice block foundation now. 

[Ultimate Aurelian]

If you want to keep checkered tiles maybe use block foundation with two different colors (makes more sense than alternating between tiles and dirt).

Although i am not sure how accurate checkering is.

http://pella.virtualreality.gr/en.html

From aerial view of ruins it seems there was only checkering inside one of the rooms.

Edited March 14, 2021 by Ultimate Aurelian

[vladislavbelov]

On 13/03/2021 at 10:14 AM, maroder said:

From my limited understanding it is better to have one big texture file, because in some cases (based on the render implementation) it decreases the performance if you draw a texture from one file and then switch to another. But maybe @vladislavbelovknows more about that?

It depends on how it's going to be used. How many different meshes are going to use these textures. Will be these meshes always rendered together or they're unrelated.

[Nescio]

Thank you for sharing those screenshots, you made some great progress! The size is great, it's clearly wonder-like . Some more things, though:

• The columns in your courtyard look Corinthian; they ought to be Doric.
• Could you add the veranda on the north (i.e. right) side?

Spoiler

• There is a problem with a wall:

Spoiler

I also stumbled upon an earlier post written by @Sundiata two years ago: https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/25207-hellenistic-royal-courts-valuable/?tab=comments#comment-366920

19 hours ago, m7600 said:

Here's a version with some exterior plants and a checkered floor pattern. @Carltonus and @Nescio, I know that you guys said that you didn't want plants on the exterior. But the civic center and the library have some (the CC in the front corners, the library on the sides). So I figured that it could work for the wonder. Also, the CC has a checkered floor pattern, so I incorporated that to the wonder as well. These are just some rough ideas though, nothing is final.
I think that the model could use some steps as well, since most of the Macedonian buildings have them.

Most structures in game are essentially fantasy designs and that's perfectly fine; artistic licence etc. However, if and when something is based on a specific building and it is roughly known how it looked like in the past, then it should reflect that closely in 0 A.D. People care about historical accuracy and wonders should showcase the best. Hence why I'm more critical than towards other structures. One doesn't embellish the Eiffel Tower with cherry trees just because it has a boring colour.

Those marble flower beds with tiny trees on the outside corners are a bit nonsense, as are the large marble pedestals in the courtyard. If you want some green, why not put some ivy on the south (i.e. left) wall? As for other decorations, how about some baskets, pottery, and perhaps weapons in the porticoes of the front and the courtyard?

15 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Trust me, we've wanted to remove them from the CC for years now. The "column" effect is definitely visible in-game and not desirable.  Better to future-proof your hard work and just add a nice block foundation now.

Yes, I fully agree! Use a solid block as a platform to erect the building upon. That also applies to other structures.

5 minutes ago, m7600 said:

So, how should I commit this after I finish it? Should I just fork the 0 AD github repo and make a pull request?

Bundle your work in a mod so people can try it out in game and wait for @LordGood or @Stan` to review it; once they're satisfied they'll commit it.

[LordGood]

It's lookin good!

gotta rebake those AO maps!

 

[Nescio]

17 minutes ago, m7600 said:

Anything else?

Yeah: those steps on all sides. It's not a temple. The palace is fundamentally a very large house.

[Nescio]

8 minutes ago, m7600 said:

Incidentally, I'm looking at the columns of the Greek civs, none of them seem to be Doric. The Macedonian buildings use Corinthian columns, the Athenians use Ionic columns, Spartans seem to use something similar to Doric but they have a square on top, Seleucids use Corinthian. The Athenian wonder looks somewhat Doric, but it also has a square on top of the column.

Yes, that's correct:

Spoiler

 

[hyperion]

47 minutes ago, m7600 said:

Add baskets, pottery, and weapons in the porticoes of the front and the courtyard

I always find those randomly placed props rather odd. A basket in front of a regular house is still ok, but shields and weapons everywhere certainly not. Either you had them close by or they were stored more or less securely.

[Nescio]

4 minutes ago, m7600 said:

@Nescio does this column look Doric to you? I modified the top of one of the game's columns.

No: Ionic etc. have a foot, Doric columns don't. There are also differences in the shape of the shaft and the ridges, but those things are probably too small for use in game.

If you're making a new column specifically for this wonder, then make them smaller (more slender) than the ones used in the temple and current wonder and use more of them in the porticoes. For comparison, the barracks is a much smaller structure but has quite a few (Corinthian) columns. And bonus points if you have three sizes, for the ground level of the frontal portico, for the storey above, and for the central courtyard .

7 minutes ago, hyperion said:

I always find those randomly placed props rather odd. A basket in front of a regular house is still ok, but shields and weapons everywhere certainly not. Either you had them close by or they were stored more or less securely.

Yeah, I'm not too fond of them either, but I've seen people complain about undecorated structures being too boring, and random pottery is better than random trees.