Should units from siege towers be able to ungarrison over walls?

[Obelix]

see: Issue #2038 ([PATCH] Let units from siege tower ungarrison over walls)

Design Input is needed on above-mentioned Issue over there at Gitea. A patch from 13 years ago exists, but rebasing might be complicated. @Itms set the Milestone to Release 29, so maybe some folks are ready for some task force work.

@ShadowOfHassen, @Atrik

[Perzival12]

I personally think that this particular idea is a bad one, as it means that walls (already kind of useless) become even more so, as a single siege tower can ungarrison 20 units over enemy walls.
A better idea might be the suggestion earlier in that issue, to add a capture attack to enemy walls by the tower.

[ShadowOfHassen]

I was thinking about this at work. I don't like the idea of walls being useless because of a siege engine and that you'd have to garrison men inside the walll all the time, but i think the idea has promise.

 I was wondering if we could make walls big enough that units could move them.  Defenders can get through the walls through wall towers that are upgraded to be entrance stairs. You can garrison mele units on the wall in order to shoot down at attackers.  Then when seige  towers attack they just drop units on the wall and then you can have a fight on the wall with the melee units fighting to get into the town.

You'd kinda also seriously buff the walls so they couldn't just be destroyed by soldiers, but it may be a good idea.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I think firstly that walls must be made more useful and less buggy before another countermeasure to them (new Siege Tower features) is implemented. Walls need:

1. Environmental Snapping, such as to (very important) cliffs and impassable water edges, and to objects such as stone mines. 

2. A health/cost/buildtime rebalance once they become more ubiquitous in multiplayer. The balance here will be crucial. Perhaps they should be slightly OP in most situations so that countermeasures such as Siege Towers (and other things? Undermines?) are warranted in the first place.

3. (not crucial) I'd like to add Sally Ports, which are like narrow "gates" but only allow one unit through at a time. So, they allow your units through and are more defensible than gates, but are allowed much lower passable bandwidth (and only let soldiers through, not civilian units, elephants, or siege weapons). Battle for Middle Earth II had these and they were nice. 

4. I think the way archers "unturret" off of the wall is goofy-looking. Furthermore, which side of the wall they ungarrison to is not immediately clear nor easily controlled (if currently even possible at all?). We should fix this somehow. Maybe we can animate units running laterally across the wall's parapet to the nearest wall tower and ungarrisoning from those. 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Not crucial to the features of a Siege Tower, but I think their model needs updated. Perhaps 2 or 3 different Siege Tower models, or the player starts with the generic wooden tower, but with the 'Armor Plating' tech their actor updates to an armored Siege Tower which has a civ-specific look (same goes for Battering Rams for that matter). 

[phosit]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

4. I think the way archers "unturret" off of the wall is goofy-looking. Furthermore, which side of the wall they ungarrison to is not immediately clear nor easily controlled (if currently even possible at all?). We should fix this somehow. Maybe we can animate units running laterally across the wall's parapet to the nearest wall tower and ungarrisoning from those. 

It would also be nice when they are weaker/capturable from that side.

[Stan`]

I'd also want to have turret restoration patch merged/improved

[Dakara]

8 hours ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

I was thinking about this at work. I don't like the idea of walls being useless because of a siege engine and that you'd have to garrison men inside the walll all the time, but i think the idea has promise.

 I was wondering if we could make walls big enough that units could move them.  Defenders can get through the walls through wall towers that are upgraded to be entrance stairs. You can garrison mele units on the wall in order to shoot down at attackers.  Then when seige  towers attack they just drop units on the wall and then you can have a fight on the wall with the melee units fighting to get into the town.

You'd kinda also seriously buff the walls so they couldn't just be destroyed by soldiers, but it may be a good idea.

TOTAL WAR ♥

doble wall anti siege tower and bye bye 

 

for you idea you need to set up some things, a wall is max 16 people and garnison tower is 20 , so 4 units will be out for no reason. A total war or strongold system is the best, but a lot of changes ahah , if you have to ungarnison the wall after in the other direction is kinda too much micro for a little efficient, tower wall should work like a stair.

 

Also increase they cost for balance it or reduce their arrow number

Edited 13 hours ago by Dakara

[LeJardindEpicure]

6 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I think firstly that walls must be made more useful and less buggy before another countermeasure to them (new Siege Tower features) is implemented. Walls need:

1. Environmental Snapping, such as to (very important) cliffs and impassable water edges, and to objects such as stone mines. 

2. A health/cost/buildtime rebalance once they become more ubiquitous in multiplayer. The balance here will be crucial. Perhaps they should be slightly OP in most situations so that countermeasures such as Siege Towers (and other things? Undermines?) are warranted in the first place.

3. (not crucial) I'd like to add Sally Ports, which are like narrow "gates" but only allow one unit through at a time. So, they allow your units through and are more defensible than gates, but are allowed much lower passable bandwidth (and only let soldiers through, not civilian units, elephants, or siege weapons). Battle for Middle Earth II had these and they were nice. 

4. I think the way archers "unturret" off of the wall is goofy-looking. Furthermore, which side of the wall they ungarrison to is not immediately clear nor easily controlled (if currently even possible at all?). We should fix this somehow. Maybe we can animate units running laterally across the wall's parapet to the nearest wall tower and ungarrisoning from those. 

Yes environnemental snapping is a must, we need to find a way to make sure the wall is impassable. Too many NOMAD games where we discover that there just a tiny little gap that allows all the enemy cav to come right through.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

12 hours ago, Stan` said:

I'd also want to have turret restoration patch merged/improved

100! 

I totally forgot about that! Wall Tower replacement is a crucial item. 

Let's fix up walls to be really nice abd feature-complete, then let's design countermeasures for them.