Champion cavalry improvements

[Grautvornix]

Somewhat related - I'd be interested in discussing countering elephants ...

[real_tabasco_sauce]

 

19 hours ago, Seleucids said:

A video demonstration of the disproportionate OPness of champion spear cav:

Well, you are using gaul champcav, which have 10% more damage than regular champcav. Also, regular CS spearmen benefit from ranking up, so involving more units would give a more realistic picture of the situation. Lastly, you should keep in mind that champ cav cost more than 3x the resources of spearmen, so it is justified that they should survive a 1 to 1 match with spearmen. Its a resource counter, but obviously there's more to the situation since we have citizen soldiers.

A good player can avoid spearmen extremely well, and in that case, you still have half your economy chasing cavalry while your enemy can have 100+ units on eco. Someone with champ cav and skirm cav can almost always choose their fights, so if there are too many spearmen coming, they go to something weaker. So I think the mobility factor is heavily underrated.

[LetswaveaBook]

The concept of a champion cavalry (with 1 population) is somewhat problematic.

(1) If it can't hold up for its value in a fight (in the sense of beat a unit that is 30% of its cost), it is just a mobility gimmick.

(2) However if it is fairly competent at dealing with 30% cost units, then the game is decided by getting enough recources to build a more expensive army.

This seems an unfixable design to me.

Edited March 2, 2025 by LetswaveaBook

[real_tabasco_sauce]

With the cavalry speed tech lumped in, skirm cav are 57% faster than skirmishers, and spear cav are 210% faster than spearmen.

This basically puts them on another planet in terms of mobility. I don't think they need to be that much faster than infantry. However, by tinkering with melee infantry speed, we may alleviate some of the problem.

[Grautvornix]

6 hours ago, Emacz said:

how so? give me some ideas

Just some thoughts: Bolt shooters might be a good counter, but they are too slow. So, should heavy spear cavalry be better or pikemen? Somehow I don't like that slingers seem to be a good counter. Is that realistic at all?

[Atrik]

Since cs melee cavs rushs and melee champ cavs are op the obvious thing to do is to increase counter dps of inf polearms.

Melees champs cavs are brokens since they lack any counter now, but themselves counter everything (inf, siege, other cavs...) and have the highest mobility. Mobility can be fun, so the nerf should be on their ability to meatshield/destroy armies of spears => restore x3 counter for example.

[leopard]

I don't understand why people want to nerf champion cavalry, Historically they are supposed to be more powerful and invincible, we might need a counter weapon to cause damage to them like Caltrop. Ranged units can use them, and we can give extra HP for spears if they are in formation.
or make them invincible in formation.

But in an 1v1 fight with an unskilled peasant, they are supposed to kill them in 1 hit. yet they don't do that in 0AD.
In Age of Empires IV, heavy cavalry units deal extra damage when they charge. Cavalry charges can also break enemy lines, which can be useful for hit-and-run tactics, we don't have it.
I think making them weak only make them useless in battle, forget about 1v1s
in real battle 3-4 pikes attack a single champ and kill them easily, the champ cavalry should justify the cost.
I think there should be anti-cavalry training upgrades for units so that they can reasonably save themselves from slaughter, army should have this upgrade if they must counter cavalry.

Edited March 4, 2025 by leopard

[leopard]

On 03/03/2025 at 3:04 AM, LetswaveaBook said:

The concept of a champion cavalry (with 1 population) is somewhat problematic.

(1) If it can't hold up for its value in a fight (in the sense of beat a unit that is 30% of its cost), it is just a mobility gimmick.

(2) However if it is fairly competent at dealing with 30% cost units, then the game is decided by getting enough recources to build a more expensive army.

This seems an unfixable design to me.

a anti-cav tech upgrade or weapons or formation bonus can fix it in my opinion.

[leopard]

Yes, caltrops, also known as "crow's feet", were used in the Battle of Gaugamela in 331 BCE. They were an effective weapon against cavalry and chariots. [1, 2, 3]

 

How were they used? [3]

• Caltrops are area denial weapons made of sharp nails or spines arranged in a pattern. [3]
• They were used to slow down the advance of troops, especially horses, chariots, and war elephants. [3]
• The Romans called them tribulus, which means "jagged iron". [4]

How were they used in the Battle of Gaugamela? [1]

• According to a history written centuries after the battle, Persian King Darius III strewed the ground with caltrops to stop Alexander the Great's forces. [1]
• Alexander was able to maneuver around the caltrops and win the battle. [2]

How were they used in other battles? [1]

• Caltrops were used in the Battle of Nisibis in 217 AD, where they helped the Roman infantry break up a Parthian cavalry charge. [1]
• In modern times, caltrops are effective against wheeled vehicles with pneumatic tires. [3]

 

Generative AI is experimental.

[1] https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a60661761/ukraine-dungeons-and-dragons-weapon/

[2] https://www.historynet.com/weaponry-the-caltrop/

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caltrop

[4] https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caltrop

 

Not all images can be exported from Search.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

IMHO, adding some kind of mechanic just to balance champ cav is too much. Perhaps Caltrops can be a tech that adds an attack bonus vs. Cavalry for infantrymen. 

[leopard]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

IMHO, adding some kind of mechanic just to balance champ cav is too much. Perhaps Caltrops can be a tech that adds an attack bonus vs. Cavalry for infantrymen. 

Caltrops and formation bonus for pikemen, Cavalry should get auto damaged like poison effect while fighting upgraded javelineer and pikemen should be harder to kill if they are in formation.

If it is too much to implement maybe a tech upgrade will be enough.
or a throw Caltrops button somewhere if we select an army and there should be a metal cost each time it is used.

[Dakara]

Yes the champion cavalry is strong, it's sometimes sad. But it's realistic. And one of the most expensive unit. 

Tests should be carried out to see the efficiency of this unit in terms of production costs. Why does this unit do slashing damage and not just piercing?  it's a spear. Is it possible for a group of melee champion cavalry to take up more space when they move? they are stuck together, this means that they attack at the same time and are difficult to target. If they are better spaced they will be less maneuverable and therefore more exposed.

Additionally some civs have very few counters to players who choose to play cav champion spear. Maybe alternatives should be added? I'm thinking of the Iberians for example.
Additionally a unit without a shield should take some extra damage from archers.

Perhaps the problem lies in playing with 200 POPs. How to counter an army that has 30 field cav with a citizen infantry army? However, raising the champion cav to 2 pop would be too big a nerf.

Remove the life bonus tech on champion units for Selucid and Persian civs?

In a scheme where the population is limited and to satisfy an equilibrium. It is normal for an elite, expert unit cost higher resource cost than a basic unit. If we calculate the resource efficiency in relation to the life and health of the units. This does not meet these requirements. Especially since cavalry has the advantage of mobility.  Of course existing counter multipliers to try to alleviate this problem.  Imagine an increase in resource costs?

It can be a choice, why not. But this significantly widens the gap between an eco player and a non-eco player / the gap between an one player who has a civilization with this unit and one who doesn't
Even if you're Persian, how can you counter this without making it yourself? it's not the immortal with 120 hp in the form of a spearman who will counter him (btw i love this unit idea)

 

Edit : make unable capture building for cavalery

Edited March 5, 2025 by Dakara

[Seleucids]

The problem perhaps is not champion cavalry themselves but rather the lack of counters from some civs. 

Mauryas and Brits are total sitting ducks against champion spear cav. 

Most civs can only counter by making equal numbers of this unit in the hope of a stalemate

Only a few civs have decent counters: Spartans, Macedonians and Athenians have champion spearman that can kill this unit effectively. 

Gauls are the only civ near perfection because their naked fanatics do exactly the job of countering spear cav. Can we give other civs some champion spearman or things similar to naked fanatics?

 

Gauls are the single most OP civ right now because they are not missing anything. They have no weakness. 

[LienRag]

Antiquity spear cavalry wasn't able to charge with "couched lance"since they had no stirrups. Couched lance charge is what made spear cavalry devastating in the middle ages.

 

So spear cavalry should be great against other cavalry, against archers, but certainly not against spearmen or any heavily armored unit.

[Noob Dude]

I think you’re all missing the point. The unit itself can be strong, and that wouldn’t be an issue. The real problem is how it’s used.

Let’s assume there’s a fight between two decent players (and no, I’m not referring to the endlessly repeated pattern of me vs. Decker). One player is using Champion Cavalry, and the other isn’t. The real issue is that even small groups of Champion Cav — even sent one by one — reach the front line very quickly and draw all the focus to themselves.

Because they’re unreasonably resistant to ranged units, they effectively become tanks that shift the entire outcome of the battle. So is the only option to make them weaker? No.

What if we had control over target priorities? Why shouldn’t a ranged unit have options like “target only ranged,” “target low HP,” “target strongest,” “target weakest,” etc.? With just a few smart targeting presets, we could greatly improve balance.

For example, archers that can’t harm champions could instead wipe out the enemy’s entire ranged force — leaving the champions to fight alone. Simple trick. Big impact.

[Deicide4u]

@Noob Dude, I've proposed an improved attack move in one of the more recent threads, as something similar:

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

How much faster compared to infantry do cavalry need to be to have a significant mobility advantage? Do they still have a mobility advantage if they are say 1.5x faster instead of 2x? would that result in less cavalry balance problems?

Also about the automatic targeting preferences, do we want to control the game entirely through menu systems and functions? or should we accept some imperfection of automated systems (like basic unit behavior) so that players can develop skills to outmicro others and win battles?

[chrstgtr]

4 hours ago, Noob Dude said:

The real problem is how it’s used.

. . .

The real issue is that even small groups of Champion Cav — even sent one by one — reach the front line very quickly and draw all the focus to themselves.

This isn’t how players use them, though. 

[Deicide4u]

14 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

This isn’t how players use them, though. 

For real, are people really spending so much APM to dance with their troops? I just send the cavalry to kill archers or whatever then go back to macroing.

[Noob Dude]

14 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

Also about the automatic targeting preferences, do we want to control the game entirely through menu systems and functions? or should we accept some imperfection of automated systems (like basic unit behavior) so that players can develop skills to outmicro others and win battles?

It is only how do you understand a STRATEGY game. IMO a strategy is not how fast and where you click. IMO strategy is how well you think. So it is only the question, should we focus on ability to click or ability to think. I'm more than sure that a "strategy" game should focus on second one. Targeting units is pure clicking. Placing troops, retreating, surrounding, using buidlings or terrain as obstacles, this is micro. Well, as you know I'm not the worse in sniping so in general having this solved would reduce my advantage over the other players but still I believe it should be done to make game more intelectually challenging than finger challenging.

"This isn’t how players use them, though. "

I don't know. Maybe they use then in different way but this is the most effective one. The only one you cant really counter. To get your inf army to fight and back this army with some champs that will take insane amout of damage while you are macroing dancing or whatever you want to do.

I stopped playing this alpha at the begining bc of this. I was facing 2 guys, dont remember who but around 1500. And i was doing very well alone v 2 bc i was spamming champs. They realised how game is broken started to build champs 3 min later game was over. Amount of champs was the ONLY factor that mattered in our game. Till I had more champs that them both I was offensive side. They had more champs I got smashed.

Will targeting "fix" only will fix it? Not sure, but best thing I can imagine rn. Maybe their resistance should be lowered aswell.

Making champ cav 2 pop wont fix the problem. Then sending 20-30 champs wont be possible but still using them as super meatshield will be valid ez win no counter strat.

[borg-]

The champion is strong and should remain that way, especially the cavalry. The real problem is how fast you can train this cavalry once you get p3. I mean, you don't see complaints from Han players abusing cavalry. If I'm in Athens, I'll hardly be able to create champion soldiers as fast as Gauls, because I need to build gyms. The real problem is in trainable champions in the barracks and stables, we need to put them in appropriate places, for that, we need new contraction models I think.

[Deicide4u]

I agree with borg, champion cavalry should remain strong. We should, however, either increase the "Unlock Champion Cavalry" tech cost (it's very cheap now), or make champions be trainable only from Fortresses (like unique units are only trainable at Castles in AoE2). And to avoid Fortress spam, increase the cost of it.

[Seleucids]

22 minutes ago, Deicide4u said:

make champions be trainable only from Fortresses

This was exactly what we had back in a23 and also what I have been suggesting all the time. Borg has it in the right direction. The champion spam problem didn't exist before A25 because of the production building limit.

[TheCJ]

3 hours ago, Noob Dude said:

Targeting units is pure clicking

Choosing which units to prioritize targeting is a strategic choice. One that might require a decent amount of inputs, but nevertheless a strategic choice.
Regarding champs from fortresses/special buildings; in historical mod, the only champ that is recruited in a base production building is the Persian Immortal. All others got their own building or come from the fortress. This has indeed helped with champion spam.

[Noob Dude]

51 minutes ago, TheCJ said:

Choosing which units to prioritize targeting is a strategic choice. One that might require a decent amount of inputs, but nevertheless a strategic choice.
 

So why not making it one button choice. Not depending of how expensive gear you got to play video game...